Ken Hardison: KPIs, Systems, and Business Strategies for Sustainable Success

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ken Hardison discuss:

• Growing a law firm that runs independently and becomes a sellable asset
• Building relationships and giving value first
• Using structured processes and key metrics to drive predictable growth
• Mentorship, collaboration, and shared expertise

Key Takeaways:

• A law firm can only be sold for real value if it operates independently, maintains a steady case pipeline, and tracks performance through key metrics, ensuring buyers see it as a sustainable business rather than a personal brand.
• Lawyers who struggle with referrals often fail to ask, lack the right approach, or don’t invest time in relationship-building, but those who prioritize value, reciprocity, and consistent engagement create a steady flow of high-quality referrals.
• Most lawyers lose business due to poor follow-up, but staying top-of-mind with referral sources through personalized thank-yous, occasional gifts, and regular check-ins ensures they continue sending cases your way.
• True financial success in law comes not from chasing profits but from focusing on genuinely helping people, because when clients and colleagues trust that you care, they are far more likely to send you business.

“You get what you want out of life by helping enough other people get what they want out of life..” —  Ken Hardison

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Episode References: 

Mastering the Rockefeller Habits by Verne Harnish: https://www.amazon.com/Mastering-Rockefeller-Habits-22nd-Anniversary-dp-B0CXCDYCHN/dp/B0CXCDYCHN/

About Ken Hardison: Kenneth L. Hardison is a lawyer, author, and founder of PILMMA, the Personal Injury Lawyers Marketing & Management Association. Known as the “Millionaire Maker,” Ken has grown and sold two multi-million-dollar law firms and now helps lawyers across the U.S. grow and scale their law firms to build the practice of their dreams.

Connect with Ken Hardison:  

Website: https://www.pilmma.org/

Email: ken@pilmma.org

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenhardison/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/PILMMA

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PILMMA

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pilmma/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin: [00:00:00] Hey everybody. Before we get to the show, I wanted to announce that your favorite podcast and mine, Be That Lawyer, is now syndicated on Above the Law. You can find it on their website, all of our new episodes, as well as my monthly column. I appreciate your listening and loyalty. Please don’t keep our show a secret.

Please tell a friend and let’s make sure that Be That Lawyer continues to grow. And be the go to podcast for lawyers all over the world. Thanks and enjoy today’s episode

Narrator: You’re listening to be that lawyer life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice Each episode your host author and lawyer coach steve Fretzin Will take a deeper dive helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results Now here’s your host steve Fretzin

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome back to the be that lawyer with me Fretzin podcast.

We are here for your listening, pleasure and enjoyment twice a week, every week, and we’re coming up on [00:01:00] five years. Can it’s a milestone, right?

Ken Hardison: Absolutely. It really is.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And 500 episodes. So we’re really on a great clip. Everything’s cranking out where we’ve got videos. We’ve got audios. We’ve got a, what are called blog casts.

If you want to read the highlights of an interview, like we’re going to do today you folks are all going to have that at your, at the ready on my website, Fretzin. com. And I’m just so excited. So I always talk about superstars coming on my show and then when I actually get one, you know, like Ken here, I can get it really excited about it.

Everyone’s a superstar, but there are people who are legends and Ken is a legend, everybody. And let’s start off Ken with your quote of the show. And this is your quote because you’re a legend, you get to have your own quotes. We grow law firms. That’s your quote. So welcome to the show and tell everybody why you grow law firms.

Ken Hardison: Yeah. So I’m a retired lawyer. I’ve been retired about 15 years, and I grew and sold two multi million dollar law firms before I did boot. So, I’ve learned the ways, what to do and what not to do, and I’ve kept up with things [00:02:00] that have changed, because things are a lot different than they were 15 years ago.

I run a lot of masterminds, so I’ll get Over a hundred lawyers across the nation that I meet with three times a year for two days. And we discuss what’s working, what’s not working and management and marketing because you know, it’s great to get the cases, but you’ve got to be able to handle them once you get them.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, there’s a lot of moving parts and we talk about all that on this show, which is, and we’re going to get into some specifics today on some things I want to ask you about. But from a standpoint of your background, I mean, people would love to hear, you know, how you sold firms. I mean, that’s the dream of many lawyers out there that are building these firms.

What’s one thing you can say about what, how you set a firm up to be sold successfully?

Ken Hardison: Yeah, I think it’s all about having it systematized. What I mean by that is. You want to sell something where you’ve got a defaultable and a pipeline of cases coming in every month that predictable, I guess is a better word for it.

When you can do that, and you’ve got a system set in. To [00:03:00] how to work these cases, how to onboard people, how to keep, what metrics do you want to keep up with, what are the benchmarks, what are your KPIs, key performance indicators, so that you can measure success and if things start going down, you can bring it back up.

When you got the whole machine that looks very enticing to people where if you just got a thing that depends solely on you, you got a problem, you know, because then, you know, it’s hard to sell. So you want to get a business, you really want to get a law firm set up where you could be gone for three or four months and it’s still churning out the bottom, you know, it’s getting cases in on a fluid way.

It’s producing income in a fluid way to where it’s all dependent on you.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, right on. And everybody, just so you know, you’re listening to Ken Hardison, he’s the founder and president of PELMA. It’s the Personal Injury Lawyers Marketing and Management Association. And you’ve been just at this a long time, really helping to make.

[00:04:00] Millionaire lawyers and make successful lawyers. I’m, you know, doing it, I think in a very different way, but I, how did you decide to sell the businesses and then rotate into working with lawyers and helping them to make money and be their best versions?

Ken Hardison: Well, selling the business, I think anytime you start a business, the end game will be to sell it.

I mean, that’s just me. I’m an entrepreneur at heart, and I’ve had numerous businesses over the years, not just law firms. You know, I build them up, and then I sell them, and then I got to build another one. How I got into this was by accident. I sold my first law firm and moved from Raleigh, North Carolina, and Myrtle Beach was going to retire.

Six months of playing golf and fishing every day, I got tired. It’s miserable and I still have lawyers calling me and, you know, emailing me, how can I do this? How can I do that? And my wife said, Ken, you need to start charging for this.

Steve Fretzin: You’re a nice guy, but enough with it.

Ken Hardison: It’d be all right if it’s like one a week, but I get probably four to six inquiries a week.

And [00:05:00] so, because I grew up real fast. Which is a whole nother story we can talk about another day, but I just really started a mastermind and then I don’t know, I was a big dad Kennedy fall, probably nobody knows who I’m talking about, but he’s like a genius when it comes to marketing and. And I’ve studied J Abraham and they both told me, he said, you got a wealth of knowledge.

You need to transform this into a real business. And so I did, and you know, I made some mistakes just like I did when I practice law, but now we’re got it. And it’s basically a subscription business. I got two levels, one, 6, 000 a month. And then I got to masternize two or 3, 000 a month. And I do some, you know, coaching on the side to help them and.

We do a Q& A. We do a magazine every month. We do a lot of different things. We do a lot of trainings like marketing roundtables, management roundtables, intake training, which I think is very important. Well, lawyers lose a lot of money on intake. So, you know, it just, it happened by accident [00:06:00] and it really got into it.

And I said, man, I mean, it is. And so, you know, it’s turned into a multi million dollar business, believe it or not.

Steve Fretzin: Well, you’re sort of like my hero because I’m coaching and training. That’s my primary thing. And I do run some Rainmaker round tables on the side and put Rainmakers in a room and let them work.

But I, you know, when you’ve been doing it as long as you have and as successfully as you have, you know, I sort of look up to folks like you to say, Hey, you know, what can I learn? What can you teach me? Because I just want to continue to add value for people and make sure that they’re happy and that they’re successful.

And it sounds like you’ve got that in spades.

Ken Hardison: Well, that’s the key to it. I mean, what I say on the tracks and all is, like, man, what I’m doing now. If you really are sincere about wanting to help people, and you’re not doing it just for the money, like money could be number two or three, you don’t get business, because people, I’ve always said, tell audiences, you know, they’re not going to care, your staff’s not going to care until they know you care, really care about them.

Your clients are not normally cared to, they don’t know you really care about. If you’re not in [00:07:00] it just for the dollar. But what I found when I had that attitude, that mindset, I made a lot of money. It came because people, especially lawyers, they can do the bullshit. I mean, you know, they can tell somebody’s just, you know, blowing smoke.

But I’m really, I mean, I really do try to help. I help a lot of lawyers. You know, at least I can’t afford you. I just give them a lot of free advice on an initial call just because. I like helping them. Yeah. Well, I’ve had a

Steve Fretzin: mantra for years that goes something like this, you get, and this could be for anyone.

I don’t care if you’re a lawyer up the street or a local, you know, retail, you get in life, you get what you want out of life by helping enough other people get what they want out of life. I think that sounds like what you’re in the middle of.

Ken Hardison: Yeah, it is. It’s fulfilling and that’s the reason I got into this.

I just was bored. I get, I could retire now. I mean, you know, I’m not rich, but I could live comfortable and and I’d be bored shitless. You and

Steve Fretzin: I are of [00:08:00] like mind. I’m 54. So you’ve got a few years on me, but I just can’t imagine. Not doing what I’m doing and not helping people and just like, I love to fish and I enjoy golf and I enjoy pickle, but to do it every day and to not be engaged with people where you can add value and help them in their lives, that doesn’t seem like anything I would ever do.

Yeah, that’s fair. And my, you know, my dad retired, you don’t know this, but my, you know, late grade, Larry, the lawyer retired at 65 to the day, he worked it out. Like he listened to books on tape and he went down to Marco Island, Florida, and he did his thing. But I did notice his brain get a little melty, a little soft because he wasn’t using it in the same way that he had practicing.

And I think you gotta have maybe, you know, if you retire, okay, maybe do 10 hours a week or do something to keep your mind active. Because I think at one point he was doing like two hours of solitaire a day. And I did the math for him on that and it was a lot of solitaire. But that said, you know, at least he was, I guess he enjoyed it.

So let’s get into the weeds on something I want to [00:09:00] talk to you about, which is really a passion of mine and a passion of yours, which is lawyers struggle getting referrals out of lawyers. They wait for them to happen or they don’t know how to build a relationship. They don’t know how to develop things to where it can become more of a regular thing.

First of all, why do lawyers struggle getting referrals? Why is that a sort of the, one of the things that they don’t? do well?

Ken Hardison: That’s a good question. I mean, it could be several reasons. I think Probably the main reason? It’s because they just don’t, they have the time to ask. Or maybe it’s a prior, I don’t know.

But it’s most lawyers don’t do things because they say I just don’t have time. But here’s what I tell lawyers. We make time for what’s important. You know, so it’s just what it is, it’s just not important to you. You know, I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong on that.

Steve Fretzin: I would say that you’re right, but I would add something to it.

And that is, They don’t know how to ask. It’s like, I don’t know how to fish for bass. I do, but let’s say I don’t. And someone says, Hey, let’s go bass fishing. And I just [00:10:00] feel stupid because I don’t know how to put a worm on a hook or I don’t know anything about it. You know, it’s tough. Like you have to learn something to, and most lawyers don’t want to, you know, step up and, you know, have to maybe go that extra mile when they’re busy, or they just don’t see it as, you know, maybe they feel like they’re just asking for something they haven’t, you know, deserve.

Maybe they don’t know how to give first reciprocation. There could be a number of reasons.

Ken Hardison: Yeah. And you just hit on one of my biggest weaknesses that my wife reminds me of is. I assume everybody knows what I’ve done, so I just assume people know how to do this, know how to do that, or know what I’m talking about, and that’s, I’m working on that, but you know, we all have our flaws, and I think that’s one of my biggest flaws, that I just assume that people, everybody knows how to get a referral from a lawyer, you know, I mean, it’s not that hard.

Well, but you

Steve Fretzin: should have gotten over that a long time ago doing these masterminds, just like, you hear, like, what they’re knowing and what they’re not knowing every day, so. Yeah, yeah. It’s like a constant reminder to you that, yeah, there’s, You know, the business development and the marketing side of the business of law is, for [00:11:00] most lawyers, quite a mystery.

Ken Hardison: You’re right. You’re true. That’s true.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. But it’s an important one to get over because I think there are a lot of different ways to get business. And if you can find the low hanging fruit, the ones that don’t eat up your time and get you better results, better cases, more qualified cases, I think referrals from other attorneys is going to come up at the top of the list.

Ken Hardison: Yeah. I mean, listen, I remember a long, long time ago, 1982, that’s not long ago, it’s been over 40 years. Well, here I lost school. I went to my hometown, set up shop. I went to every lawyer in the county. And went to him and said, listen, I want to pick your brain and I want to let you know if you got anything you don’t want to do, some shit case, whatever, I’ll do it.

You know, I said, I’ve got plenty of time. I just got out of law school, probably remember more than I’ll ever know in my life. So I’m here to help if you want some, you know, if you want a referral fee or whatever, but you know, if you just need me to write a brief, whatever you need, I [00:12:00] just need some money.

And I had a family and I got a lot of business. I mean, you know, but that’s just going around asking. I mean, you know. A lot more sophisticated once you get established, I think that there’s more of a strategy to it. But I think when you’re young and starting out, everybody feels sorry for you. Maybe that was the problem.

Maybe that was

Steve Fretzin: mine. Yeah. Well, it’s not a bad approach if people like you and feel bad for you, then they throw you stuff. That’s one way to go. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings. io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.

io when they want rankings traffic in cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings. io today. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here. Man, I thought I was a good marketer, but maybe not. Lawyers have been a What’s the Rainmakers Roundtable?

Well, I tell them this is a special place created exclusively [00:13:00] for rainmaking lawyers to continue their journey of prosperity. Our program is unique as every member has a significant book of business and is motivated to grow it year after year. Where else does this exist? If you’re a managing partner who’s looking to get off your lonely island and talk shop, With America’s Top Rainmakers, please go to my website, Fretzin.

com, and apply for membership today. You know what’s funny, Ken, is I was so desperate for business when I started my company 21 years ago. I, the way I was networking was I was just buying stuff from people. Like, that’s how I, I didn’t have anything to give them. So I was like, Oh, you do tchotchkes. Okay.

I’ll buy a bunch of these pens from you. Or I don’t, you know, I don’t have business insurance. Do I need business insurance? They’re like, yeah, you need business insurance. Like, okay, so I’ll go buy some business. So I spending a lot of money networking instead of, because I had to develop the basics to get to get the business in and to meet people.

But anyway, I love that you went out and just asked for help, which is. You know, I think that’s an important skill is to not sit quietly and, and [00:14:00] suffer, I think you have to ask. So then what are some things that you figured out then and moving forward and, you know, with 40 years behind you of how do lawyers effectively get referrals from other lawyers?

What are some of the key components of that?

Ken Hardison: Well, I think you start with the basics, just like you do with people who hire lawyers. They gotta know you, like you, and trust you. I call it the know, like, trust deal. But I think the other thing is, you gotta be a giver, not just a taker. And what I mean by that is, we’ve talked about this before you know, you rolled my podcast, I thought you did a great job.

Probably a lot better than I’m gonna do today on this. But really, you know, it’s booked by Chow Diddy. Talks about reciprocity. And when you, I preach this to my lawyers, that I coach, and they’re my matchmates. Go there with the idea that you’re going to help that person, and 50 you back. 50 percent of them probably won’t, but you’re still doing a good thing.

You know, and let’s say, let’s go have lunch. You know, there’s a book out there called Never [00:15:00] Eat Alone. You’ve got to eat lunch anyway. At least once or twice a week, go set up a lunch with somebody. Sit down and talk to them. And always try to find something in common or something, you know. Take the interest in them.

People, especially lawyers, love to talk about themselves. So let them talk. And then Instead of saying, hey, I want referrals, say, you know, do you take referrals? And what is like your ideal client? I don’t want to send you shit, but what is like your favorite client, you know? And is there anything else, you know, that you’re having problems?

I’m pretty good at the, you know, business or, you know, anything, any challenges you have. If I can help, maybe I can find help. But it might not be you helping me. I connect a lot of people now. I don’t know everything, like, I got lawyers asking me about local service eds. I don’t really know all that intricacies.

But I got two or three guys that do and I say talk to these people because they’re like gurus. So if you can help people out doing that, and then they want to be reciprocal [00:16:00] and try to, most of them, not all of them, and try to help you back. And how can they help you back? They say, yeah, that’s great, man.

What can I do for you? Well, I do PI and I love to get more PI cases, you know, I really like motor vehicle cases, or I really like, you know, dog bike cases, whatever kind of cases you like, but I’ll take them all, but these are the kind I really like, and I’m willing to pay a referral fee, you know, if you are, and then sometimes You know, I used to refer out a lot of domestic criminals, I never asked for feedback, but if they sent me a case, I’d pay them a referral fee, because our fees are a lot bigger, generally, so, you know, but I think it’s the whole rest of the proxy deal is like, kind of like what you said before, you give the people what they want, they’ll help you get what you want, you know, it’s that whole, that old saying.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, and I think, Ken, it’s a misnomer that we have to go out and give business to people. Look, if I’m meeting somebody for the first time, their expectations that I’m going to give them a case should be nothing. Because first of all, I’m not a lawyer to give cases, and number two is, you [00:17:00] know, the likelihood that I’m going to run into a PI case, you know, maybe one or two in a year might be the max I’m going to have, right?

So I think we have to think outside the box with Yes, if I have a case and I want to give it to you and I know you well enough to feel comfortable doing it, great. But I think we also need to think about who are the connectors, right? Who are the connectors for PI attorneys, right? That could be estate planners, that could be criminal attorneys, that could be, the list goes on and on of people who are more likely to be asked about who do you know than just a random corporate attorney, for example.

What are some other things that we can do for others that allow us to be reciprocal and start off on the right foot so that we can then maybe make the ask on the back end with a little more confidence?

Ken Hardison: Oh, that’s a good question. You’re talking about when you meet with them? When you’re talking about even before you meet?

Steve Fretzin: No, I mean when you meet with somebody. So I’m meeting with you and I don’t have a case for you and maybe I don’t even have a lawyer for you that I could introduce you to. I would, of course, but I, let’s say in this hypothetical, I’m thinking like having you on my podcast, Ken, I’m thinking like having you on my podcast, [00:18:00] Ken.

And you having me on yours, or maybe I’m including you in a panel because I run these panels with financial poise, which is like Westlaw and Thompson Reuters. And I create these panels of, and I include lawyers, you know, that I think would fill these panels. And so like they’re getting in front of hundreds of thousands of people.

I’m the one in charge of that. And so that’s another value add. I mean, there’s just, there’s more than one ways to skin a cat. And I, you know, so I’m just asking if there’s some other thoughts on what you would recommend there. I

Ken Hardison: mean, just what I said, I mean, trying to find out, you know, what their challenges are, or, you know, just talking with them, you find out that their their kids want to be a great baseball player, and they really haven’t shrunk at the curveball.

I got this guy I know that really helped me, helped my kid, you know, let me give you his number. It was something like that. It’s nothing to do with law per se, but it’s You’re, you’re giving, like you say, you’re giving value back to people even if you don’t know how to teach a kid how to hit a curve ball.

[00:19:00] Right, but

Steve Fretzin: the point is, is like you’re connecting dots, you’re making efforts. I think that’s the thing that people aren’t understanding is that, you know, you have to look at, at making an effort and not out, you’re not out to sell anyone. You’re out there to add value and to help others. And that allows for the reciprocation, to your point, to happen more naturally.

Ken Hardison: Yeah, I mean, it’s, you gotta go with the mindset that you’re, you’re given with no expectation, or maybe not no, but not 100 percent expectation that you’re gonna get received. But it’s okay, because you’re still doing a good thing, and Like I said, you got to eat somewhere anyway. And you never know, just never know.

And I think the other thing is too, like once you leave them, you know, you brought out something great on my podcast was about kind of bit, but make sure that the referrable, you know what I’m saying? I think that’s important too, because worst thing you can do is refer somebody to the shitty lawyer.

But they give good client service. I mean, I had this school when I did it. I tell [00:20:00] the people, I listen. My client used to get called back the same day of being treated, you know, with the utmost respect. And if you can’t do that, I understand it, but I can refer you to Casey. I actually quit. I called the lawyer up.

My client called me. But what I referred him to me is that he was just very rude, you know. He didn’t call me back the next day and he was rude like I was. I just called the lawyer and I said, listen, I can’t see any more cases. He was surprised. He said, oh, man. I said, listen, I told you, man. I said, my clients are, they’ve been fooled.

I mean, you know, we fooled them when we had them. I mean, I had a rule that you all the staff and the lawyers, you would put grandma in the distendants. If you wouldn’t talk to your grandmother like that, you’re going to talk to our clients like that. I love that. I love that. And I stole that from a guy named Jeffrey Gittimer from Charlotte.

Oh yeah,

Steve Fretzin: sure. Jeffrey Gittimer. Was that Little Red Book of Selling?

Ken Hardison: Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: Classic. Yeah.

Ken Hardison: Yeah.

Steve Fretzin: All right.

Ken Hardison: I did that 20 something years ago. Yeah,

Steve Fretzin: me too. Me too. Wow. It’s like a flash from the past, Jeffrey Ginnimer. [00:21:00] The other thing that I, you know, so I do talk about qualifying to make sure that a lawyer is referable.

The other thing that I like to qualify is This is a sentence I teach my clients and I think it’s money. It’s absolute money. You sneak this question in at the end of a, like an initial or second coffee meeting or lunch meeting with someone and you say, just out of curiosity, how often in a given year are you running into XYZ cases?

Just, is that happening all the time that often? If they say, I haven’t seen a case like that in 10 years, that might be a disqualifier that, hey, you can still make a friend and help somebody, but to spend a lot more time with that person who’s never going to run into your stuff, that’s a disqualifier.

Less sense than someone says, Oh, 10, 20 times a year, probably. I mean, then you’re really understanding, Hey, this person has the goods and I have to stay. Friendly and on their radar and, and I gotta reciprocate, make and take care of them because there’s a good amount of, of opportunity here.

Ken Hardison: Yeah, and I think the other thing too is if you find, if they get qualified, you know, they do have a lot of cases that they send you [00:22:00] and you do do make that connection, I think what they send you.

Case always sent a handwritten thank you notes. And I would try, once I developed that relationship, I didn’t do it with everybody, but they sent me more than two cases. I would either call or get my secretary to call their secretary and find out, Who was your favorite ball team? What’s their favorite, do they like cigars?

You know, whatever. I mean, what’s their favorite hobby? What’s their favorite sports team? And I would send them stuff like, I’d send them a bottle of whiskey, I’d send them a bottle of wine, I’d send them tickets to the Bulls game, you got Jordan Mahalian, if they were in Chicago, I’d send them, you know, two tickets to the Bulls game or something.

And just, you know, just showing them that I’m thinking of them and that I appreciate it, you know. Staying top of mind too is very important. It’s important for lawyers and for your past clients. If you don’t stay in front of them, you know, I like every two or three months, I like to do something, you know, and also you set up a thing, Google alert with their name in it, [00:23:00] something good.

I wouldn’t know something good happened, but also something bad happened, I wouldn’t know, they won’t keep referring to somebody that was. Being, you know, indicted, or is investigated, or bar complaint, you know, so he, but really did it start with about good stuff, you know, so I could send him a card, or, you know, something, or an email, even just an email, hey, so you got this award, congratulations.

Steve Fretzin: But I think that takes us full circle back to what you said at the very beginning, which is having processes for things in one process that lacks with most attorneys is a process for keeping in touch and following up on most lawyers that I know don’t have a CRM. They don’t have a system in place that can automate, personalize, CRM.

Email and newsletters and things to go out to people to stay in touch and to send gifts or to send thank you cards or to send birthday gifts or whatever it might be. Do you talk about that in your groups? Is that something that you that you reach pretty regularly?

Ken Hardison: Yeah, I mean, you know, and they got real sophisticated ones and they got real, you know, simple [00:24:00] ones you know from one of the chimp, monkey chimp or whatever it’s called, a male chimp, male chimp,

Steve Fretzin: yeah,

Ken Hardison: To eat.

You know, we used to keep it Puma, very sophisticated. You can submit your list, you can set it to send out stuff a year in advance. I mean, you know you can grade people, you know, like this would be a, you know, a three versus a one, you know, so this person gets these types of gifts, all types of things.

Steve Fretzin: Not everybody’s created equal in, as it relates to follow up and it relates to investing money. So. You’re a referral source should get, you know, stuff up here and someone you haven’t talked to in five years that sent you one thing five years ago for a thousand dollars, maybe they’re down here. It doesn’t mean we don’t keep in touch, but it’s not the same level of intensity.

Ken Hardison: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, I used to do this for my past clients too, all the people who were in big cases, they had a bar rule in North Carolina, you could not, you know, quit pro quo. You couldn’t give somebody. Could share fees or couldn’t get [00:25:00] somebody money to pay for a referral. But what I would do is just say, okay, four times a year I’ve sent out gifts and I’ve graded them, you know, one, two, three.

And you know, the ones had given me over three referrals in the last 12 months, you know, or I can’t remember, maybe it was five. And then the twos, you know, maybe, you know, three or four, maybe it was, I can’t remember, but they do, it don’t really matter. They do as you grade them up. And I have certain gifts I would give.

To past clients, because I do not try to keep up with what their best aims were. It’s just too many of them. I love, I’d probably get,

oh, probably 40 cases a month. Referrals from past clients. Yeah. I mean, I just, I got a lot, but we, we did do that. We did send birthday cards. We did send holiday cards. We sent Valentine’s cards. I sent them. We love referrals. And I said, my class, we love our class, you know, [00:26:00]

Steve Fretzin: be my Valentine. It doesn’t have to be romantic.

It could be, you know, just we love you. Hey man, let’s wrap up Ken with the with your game changing book. We already talked about a couple of books, but this one I never heard of before mastering the Rockefeller habits. I’m assuming he had some good habits.

Ken Hardison: Yeah, it’s a book about John Rockefeller, but it’s really about Vern Harnish.

I Vern Harnish is, I think, is one of the most, when it comes to scaling a business, probably one of the smartest guys I’ve ever met. He met with me for many years. He spoke at my event. This was his first book. He did another book called Scaling Up, but it’s really like the 10 things you need to do.

And it’s each 10 have it got three or four things underneath you need to check. If you do all these things, you’re going to kill it. I mean, it took me two and a half years to get to all 30, maybe 40 items. So it’s a process, but the deal is then you’ll have a sellable business, I promise you. We were talking about it at the beginning, so we’re going in with the [00:27:00] same thing.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, we come full circle. I love it. Hey everybody as we’re wrapping up Wanna just take a moment to thank our sponsors the law her podcast on my friend Sonia hanging out and doing great work over there It with rankings IO and Pymcons coming up. That’s Chris Dreyer’s baby and get ready to go from good to goat Pymcons back in October 5th through 8th.

I think you can go and get on the waitlist if you go to Pymcon. org And check that out. Ken, if people want to hear more about your mastermind groups in Pylma, what are the best ways for them to reach you?

Ken Hardison: Yeah. Info at Filba. org. B R L M M A dot O R G. All

Steve Fretzin: right. And that’s an email that they can send something out to say, Hey, give me more information.

Okay. Wonderful. Listen, this is your second time on my show. It was a long time ago I had you on and I’m, I’m kicking myself. I didn’t have you on more recently, but As always, a pleasure, I mean, you’re just a wealth of knowledge, you know your stuff better, you know, backwards and forwards, and so, I just appreciate you coming on, sharing your wisdom, man.

Ken Hardison: Oh, no, thank you, I appreciate it.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah, thank you [00:28:00] everybody for spending time with Ken and I today on Be That Lawyer with Fretzin Podcast, we are here to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. Take care everybody. Be safe. Be well. We will talk again soon.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer, life changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website Fretzin. com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.