What if your biggest business-development advantage wasn’t your legal skill, but how you make people feel? In this episode, you’ll hear how a former big-firm lawyer turned coach built a decades-long career helping attorneys grow their books by leading with listening, caring, and genuine relationships.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Stewart Hirsch discuss:
- Why “how you make people feel” drives business development
- Lessons from watching a non-lawyer sell through listening and care
- Stuart’s journey from law firm associate to in-house to full-time coach
- Shifting from marketing to true business development in law firms
- Practical habits: following up, setting next steps, and thinking like in-house counsel
Key Takeaways:
- Technical excellence is now table stakes; the differentiator is how you treat people and how you make them feel in every interaction.
- Deep, genuine listening often outperforms sophisticated “pitches” when it comes to earning trust and long-term business.
- Careers can pivot powerfully when you follow the work that energizes you, even if it means turning down “dream” jobs that would pull you off your path.
- Consistent follow-up and always setting clear next steps are two of the most reliable habits for building a strong book of business.
- To serve in-house clients effectively, outside counsel need to think like business decision-makers, not just risk-spotters, and offer practical, directional advice.
“Start with the attitude of caring and curiosity.” — Stewart Hirsch
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About Stewart Hirsch: Stewart Hirsch, Esq. is the Managing Director of Strategic Relationships, LLC, where he serves as an executive leadership and business development coach, consultant, and facilitator. Drawing on over 20 years of experience practicing law—both in-house at major corporations like Staples, TJX, and Welch’s, as well as in private practice—he helps lawyers, C-suite executives, and professional services leaders build high-impact client relationships, navigate complex communications, and accelerate career growth. Recognized as a top business development coach by Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly, Stewart also acts as a Senior Coach for Trusted Advisor Associates, designs interactive corporate workshops, and serves as a career coach for members of the Association of Corporate Counsel.
Connect with Stewart Hirsch:
Website: https://strategicrelationships.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stewarthirsch/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at be that lawyer.com/community. And other than that, please enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:29]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Ritson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:51]
Hey, everybody! Steve Fretzen here, and welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. This is where you build your book, you own your future, and you become that lawyer-the one everyone’s talking about. That lawyer-that’s who you want to be. That’s why you’re listening to this show. I am so excited to just share that the Be That Lawyer community is now open and available. If you’re interested in applying for membership, go to bethatlawyw.com/community. It’s just under a grand a year, and you’re going to have membership with 90 plus other attorneys that are rainmakers and business developers to work on your business together and network, and all my content is there. And there’s the live events, all kinds of stuff. But check it out and let me know what you think. And hopefully you’ll sign up and join us. It’s an incredible group of people. I got Stewart waiting in the wings. How you doing, Stewart?
Stewart Hirsch [01:37]
Hi. Good afternoon. Or good afternoon for you. Good
Steve Fretzin [01:39]
night. One of those depends where I am right now. I’m in Chicago. Nice to
Stewart Hirsch [01:43]
see you.
Steve Fretzin [01:44]
Nice to see you. Nice Jeremy Pook, the the introducer in chief, got us together after knowing us both. I’m assuming a while.
Stewart Hirsch [01:52]
Yeah, I’ve known Jeremy a long time.
Steve Fretzin [01:54]
Yeah, he’s a good dude. I like Jeremy. He came into Chicago. We had a nice nice lunch together, and yeah, I’m coming back to New York. I got to ping him when I come back in.
Stewart Hirsch [02:02]
I’ll be in Chicago soon.
Steve Fretzin [02:03]
Well, there you go. All right, where are you in the city, or you come out to the burbs?
Stewart Hirsch [02:06]
No, it’s been in the city. Okay. Acting as a coach for an organization and been doing it for several years. Nam Wolf.
Steve Fretzin [02:14]
Oh, yeah, yeah. Fantastic, fantastic. Yeah, National
Stewart Hirsch [02:17]
Association of Minority and Women Owned Law Firms.
Steve Fretzin [02:19]
Ah, well, Chicago is hot as a hot as a beast today, and it’s been storming all day. But I’ll tell you, if you’re coming in in is it September, October? That’s the prime time.
Stewart Hirsch [02:29]
It’s October.
Steve Fretzin [02:30]
October’s perfect. That is great. That is great. Okay. Hey, everybody, we are going to jump in and get to the show. This is a a quote that is near and dear to a lot of people’s hearts, and it’s been on the show. This this might be the number one quote on this show over the last seven years we’ve been doing it. Maya Angelou, it’s I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. Stuart, welcome to the show, and tell us why you love that quote
Stewart Hirsch [02:57]
for multiple reasons. It’s favorite quote of one of my clients, and for many years that I worked with, but more importantly, it’s really a it’s a concept that works really well for business development. I’ve been doing business development for a long time, and you know there are some very okay lawyers that get lots of business, and they get lots of business because of how they make people feel. They doing good work is table stakes.
Steve Fretzin [03:21]
Yeah, yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [03:22]
But making people feel good-that’s what people keep coming back for.
Steve Fretzin [03:26]
Yeah, my father, the late great Larry, the lawyer. I think he did an incredible job. I don’t think he was a terrific businessman. He did-he did all right. But I think, from a standpoint of, you know, something he would say is, you know, I don’t care if you’re a billionaire or if you don’t have two nickels to rub together. I’m going to advocate for you, and I’m going to take care of you no matter what. And he really lived up to that. And by the way, he I was I interviewed him on my 200th show. Somebody wants to go back in time in the Be That Lawyer archives and pull out episode 200. That’s a fun. I I listen to it now and then if I feel like a good cry because he passed about two years ago.
Stewart Hirsch [04:00]
Yeah. So my dad sold fertilizer to farmers in New Jersey, and I used to go with him on his roots, and that’s where I even wrote a blog about it on the trusted my site and the trusted advisor site.
Steve Fretzin [04:10]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [04:11]
and it’s called Everything I Know Iver Wanted to Know About Sales I Learned from My Father.
Steve Fretzin [04:16]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [04:16]
and I used to watch him sell. It was fascinating. He would sit there and he would say, “How you doing? How’s your wife? They were all men. How’s your wife? How are the kids? And he’d say the same thing, you know. How? And they stripping him with us, giving him coffee, which he hated. And so he would, they would, he would sit there with them, and he’d ask them those questions, and they’d say, “How’s how are you doing? Ah, we’re great. How’s your wife? She’s great. How the kids? They’re great. But then he complained a bit, and then how’s the farm? Oh, it’s awful. Let me tell you.
Steve Fretzin [04:41]
Yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [04:42]
And one day they said to him, you know, all these guys come to us and they have all these brilliant things. They do soil samples. They tell us what we need. But Marsh, you just come and listen. And I love that you just come and listen. And that’s why you’re the only one that’s going to get my business.
Steve Fretzin [04:56]
Yeah. I have the field.
Stewart Hirsch [04:58]
That’s where I learned it.
Steve Fretzin [04:59]
Yeah. Well, I have a feeling we’re going to come back to that fairly quickly because listening and building trust and having a better style than pitching and selling is sort of the I think the angle that you and I come at things from, and we’re gonna we’re gonna take a deeper dive into that. But everybody, you guys are in for such a treat today. You don’t even realize that Stuart Hirsch has been doing business development for lawyers 10 years longer than me, 94, and he is the managing director, executive, and business development coach at Strategic Relationships. And give us how you came to be and how you found your. Well, you’re you’re a former lawyer, correct?
Stewart Hirsch [05:33]
I am. Yeah, I started a big law firm. I don’t. This I think this is the first time I’m ever saying this publicly on recording. Okay, which is the firm and I both agreed. I wasn’t meant to be a lawyer, but they agreed before I did. So that was in the olden days when they gave people a chance to look for another job. So they gave me as long as I needed. So it took me about nine months. I went from being a litigator to being a corporate real estate lawyer at another firm. I was there until this is kind of interesting too. Thank you for reminding me of this stuff.
Steve Fretzin [06:02]
Yeah, the
Stewart Hirsch [06:03]
they told me that I had to bring in. This is 1987, 8887, That I had to bring in. They hired one of these big consulting firms, which I won’t name. I’m still not happy with them. But they said they told all the people that worked there, all six of us, you know, there were four associates had to bring in a lot, a certain amount of business, and they wanted to survive in the firm. So I was given two years to bring in annually 200,000 in business, and my rate was $90 an
Steve Fretzin [06:31]
hour.
Stewart Hirsch [06:32]
I didn’t think that was possible, and we had two kids at home. And I said, “That’s it. I’m looking. So I started looking, and I found a job that in house company called Hills Department Stores. You’ve never heard of them because they’re not around anymore. But when they were, it was very large department store chain, and I planned to spend the rest of my life in a cushy in-house position. It was neither of those. Two years and 11 months and like four days into it, I was laid off with 10% of the workers. They filed for Chapter 11 a few months later, and there were no jobs, 1990. So I had to make something up.
Steve Fretzin [07:03]
Yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [07:03]
And so my my journey was I made something up. I loved in house, and I loved the idea of getting business. So I went out and introduced myself to a bunch of people. I got networked. I start. I networked like crazy. Yeah. And I got a bunch of companies that Hills need still need them, even not on payroll. I got TJX as a client, Staples, Welch’s, Dun and Bradstreet, New England Medical Center, Boston University, Cabot Creamery. I had 15 companies. Sometimes three or four. One time, five at a time. It was totally crazy. I was walking around my Rolodex, you know, in the car because because there weren’t enough. I could define what
Steve Fretzin [07:36]
a Rolodex is for our friends under 30. Oh
Stewart Hirsch [07:38]
right, yeah, little cards, little cards on little cards that would spin
Steve Fretzin [07:42]
on a wheel that you could keep all the people’s information, and that’s how we kept track. Everybody, yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [07:46]
But because I didn’t have a computer, I couldn’t like write them all down, and I couldn’t read my handwriting, so that was useless. Yeah, yeah. And I hadn’t typed in a long time. So anyway, I I built this thing with all these big companies, and my my pivot was I started telling my friends how I was getting work, and then somebody, I said somebody asked me to help them, and I helped them, and I said, “Gee, I could help people get business and not ever have to work again as a lawyer. Yeah, and it was great. And so the first two people I asked said, “What a great idea! Can I hire you? I asked them their opinions, and they they offered to hire me. But right before that, I was offered a full time job at at TJX, which was like creme de la creme. It’s great company, wonderful people. I’ve been doing interesting work for them, and I struggled with it. And I went home and discussed it with my wife, and it was great because she said, “Follow your heart. And my heart said my stomach actually was going to fall out because, like, I don’t want a job. Like, I’m afraid. I don’t want to do this again. And my head said, “Well, I need it. I need the money. What am I going to do? I had no work. I was going to leave there. Project. I had nothing. So what I did was I thought about it. I said, ‘I’m going to turn it down. And I went back to the general counsel and I said, ‘Thank you. If there was ever a job I would ever want, it would be this one. I’m on a path. I don’t know where it’s going. I don’t know when I’m going to get there. But if I take this job, which is the best job I would ever take, I would. It’s going to take me off the path, and I. And I’ll never. I’ll never see where this leads. And a few, a couple months later, that’s when I started really doing coaching, and it took me seven years to stop practicing law and just getting into coaching, and the reason it took seven years, we had four kids. I had to build, had to you know keep income coming, and by 2001, actually September 10 2001 was my last day. They had to kick me out of the office physically because they needed my space because I wouldn’t take a job. They had to hire somebody, so so I had to get out of there, and and the next day was September 11. So that was a sad time. But and I built I had built the business in 2001. I was full time coach.
Steve Fretzin [09:47]
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And you’re you’re ahead of your time. Like I when I got into working with lawyers in 2008, there weren’t that many players in the space. I mean, it was not it was not loaded like it is today. Now there’s hundreds and hundreds. Of lawyers and coaching, and every week there seems to be, you know, in all the different areas, they’re not all business development. Some of them are leadership. Some of them are time management. Some of a lot of specialists, and I and there’s some that I absolutely love, and there’s some that probably should find something else to do. But but you know, we’re not
Stewart Hirsch [10:17]
naming names.
Steve Fretzin [10:18]
I’m not naming names. Well, privately, I’ll share.
Stewart Hirsch [10:21]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [10:21]
but ultimately, I want to. I have so many questions to ask you, but I guess the number one would be from ’94 through today. We’re looking at over 30 years. How have you seen lawyers and business development change? Like, I mean, is it are they still the same as they were? Is it how has it changed?
Stewart Hirsch [10:39]
So you know, when I first started it, I couldn’t even say I was doing. I mean, I would say I’m doing business development, but it met a lot of deaf ears. Nobody understood what it was. It was all about marketing, and they all expected the lawyers and the firms all expected other people, you know, the marketers to be doing the marketing, and then the phone calls would come in. Remember phone calls? Yeah, back in the day. Yeah, and and that’s more of what happened. So I go into the law firms, and they you know they would want their marketing people, but individuals were hiring me. So there were individuals who really wanted to grow their businesses, and they recognized the value of it. And you know, I my longest running client with that time for starting then around then was 19 years. I worked with somebody, kind of re from a large firm. He keep reinventing himself. So the changes moved from business from marketing to business development, and really separating the two out and having them all under one roof, but separating out the two areas. Coaching really, I was alone out there, I had to like create the market and sell. You know, and I don’t like calling it selling because you you and I both know it’s it’s not selling. It’s finding ways to help people.
Steve Fretzin [11:50]
Yeah, I mean, even even when I got into it, Stuart, when I tried to get CLEs approved, you know, 15 years ago in Chicago, for example, like I mean, I had to use all kinds of fancy language to get it all across the finish line, and now it’s like common practice that business development and marketing are given CLE on a regular basis. It’s changed. Yeah, I never
Stewart Hirsch [12:10]
bothered. I did. I didn’t bother. But the firm. I went into a firm and they wanted to get it. They could get it. I didn’t do it through anybody else. I was always doing. Was oh for a long time. I was only doing it on my own, except when I met Charlie Green. I don’t know if you know that name. I
Steve Fretzin [12:22]
don’t know Charlie Green.
Stewart Hirsch [12:23]
You know Charlie?
Steve Fretzin [12:24]
I don’t.
Stewart Hirsch [12:25]
Oh, he’s the co-author of the Trusted Advisor.
Steve Fretzin [12:28]
Oh, okay, okay. I know the book. I know the story. Yep.
Stewart Hirsch [12:30]
Yeah, through networking. I don’t know if you want to hear the story. It was great. Through networking with a guy in Texas, my client, my 19-year client, he was working with somebody that does the this CFO, what they would now call fractional, but they didn’t they didn’t have that term then fractional CFO group, and I met somebody up here in the Boston area where I am, and he was looking for a CFO, so a temporary CFO, and so I asked my guy in Texas to introduce me to his connection in Texas, who was in that to see if they had an office here? They did. They just started one here. I met the person here, got the connection. They got a job, and then he said, the guy says, come up and meet the the CFOs because we may have some people we can introduce you to, and we’ll network. And I said, great. So I went and visited. That was the day, and I brought my Rolodex and everything. And when I got there, and I told him my philosophy, which is very similar to yours, you know, help people all the time, care about other people, stuff like that, the basics, and what I learned from my father. And the guys, one of the guys, said to me, “You got to meet my study group mate from Harvard Business School. He just wrote a book. His name is Charlie Green. He wrote the Trusted Advisor, and I’m like, okay. I never heard of him. I never heard of the book, but he introduced me. I called up Charlie Green. We had a lovely conversation, and Charlie hired me to be his coach.
Steve Fretzin [13:51]
Oh my god!
Stewart Hirsch [13:51]
As an executive coach.
Steve Fretzin [13:52]
Wow.
Stewart Hirsch [13:53]
And that just that brought a whole new line on. You just if you if you look backwards and you see how things happen in your life, like there are pivotal moments. Meeting Charlie, amazing pivotal moment. Pivotal, pivotal moment.
Steve Fretzin [14:05]
Yes, yeah, that’s awesome. And
Stewart Hirsch [14:08]
he introduced me to a woman who wanted coaching, and she was in house, and I started working with her. And turns out she she wanted to be a general counsel, and that got me into executive and leadership coaching for in house lawyers.
Steve Fretzin [14:18]
Okay,
Stewart Hirsch [14:19]
she ultimately introduced me to someone else who was chief compliance officer of a very big company, or just got the job, and I worked with her, and it just opened up to how why I started doing a lot of work with women because they got me into the Women Influence Power and Law
Steve Fretzin [14:33]
conference. Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [14:34]
started doing a lot of work with that group.
Steve Fretzin [14:36]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [14:37]
so one you know one thing led to another. It’s
Steve Fretzin [14:39]
not, but it’s but I think what we’re picking up on is a theme of paying it forward and being useful and helpful to others, and how then it gets reciprocated, and then people want to introduce you around. They’re excited to get you in front of a Charlie man and others that are high-profile people or soon to be high-profile people. But that’s that’s the name of the game. I don’t think. I don’t think selling and convincing and pitching and the things that lawyers sort of instinctively seem to be doing on the field is the way to go. So what what is the way to go? What are you teaching, and what is your sort of methodology about how you help lawyers build a book and live a great life and make less mistakes?
Stewart Hirsch [15:19]
Well, it’s again philosophy is the first thing. It’s really it’s about your mindset. It’s how you think about things. And so I, without saying all the time, it came from my father, but it ultimately did. It was just being a caring person. So start with the attitude of caring and curiosity. Lawyers are curious, so that should be easy.
Steve Fretzin [15:40]
Just add in the caring part. Add in the caring.
Stewart Hirsch [15:42]
Really care, but you know the truth is most lawyers really do. No, they
Speaker 1 [15:46]
- They do.
Stewart Hirsch [15:46]
But they’re often afraid to show it.
Steve Fretzin [15:48]
Yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [15:48]
And I said, so let them know you care, like really care. And then think about each person you meet, like no matter where they are, what they’re doing. What can I do to be helpful to you? And that could mean anything. It could be who do I know? It could be can I help someone else in your family? Can I help someone else in your life? And then what can you do to be helpful to me? But you don’t ask those questions. But when you listen to the answers, you’ll get a sense of what you can do to be helpful. That’s how I when I met the guy that needed a temporary CFO. I was just asking him about himself. What’s he up to? You know, and then this, and I remember listening to my client talk about in Texas, talk about that CFO group, and I put two and two together. I think having ADD helps because I do not view the world linearly.
Steve Fretzin [16:33]
Well, you and I may be a brother from another mother on that end too. I I’ve I’ve been undiagnosed with it forever, and and I think it’s my greatest strength. I think you know that way. When you really want something and you really get focused on something, you’re sort of my kid’s the same way. He’s just unstoppable when he wants something. Unfortunately, when he was a kid, it was a snake. So that’s where I drew a line. I didn’t want a big old snake in the house, but you know, I think where we’re going with this is a general mindset of we have to stop thinking about the sell and the sale and what’s in it for me, and we have to flip that mindset and that philosophy too. If we start, if we start thinking about others and how how we can help them win, how can we help them advance, and then just sort of let the karma like flow over us if we that’s right if we do it with our hearts.
Stewart Hirsch [17:21]
Yeah, yeah. And coming from a heart place is really important. First firm that’s gone now, they told me that the reason I wasn’t going to make partner-I’ve never shared this either publicly-is because I wore my heart on my sleeve.
Steve Fretzin [17:33]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [17:34]
and my response was, “What’s wrong with that? What’s wrong with being full human being?
Steve Fretzin [17:39]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [17:39]
and I think that is really important. Now you don’t you don’t have to show your heart to everybody, but you have to have it all the time. Yeah, and yeah, and I love that you said that. Putting your heart into it.
Steve Fretzin [17:49]
There’s part of it is is in business development, in networking, and and being of service to others, and how we sort of put ourselves out there, even with prospective clients. Like I’m talking with someone, and it’s absolutely clear that they’re not a fit for me, or that I’m not gonna be the best person for them. They’re looking for a female coach, or they’re looking for someone that’s more marketing focused and can help them with their website and stuff. I’m not gonna pretend. Like I’m just gonna tell them this isn’t me. I love that you that you reached out to me, think that I’m the person. But good news is I’m gonna put you to the right person and make sure you don’t spin your
Speaker 2 [18:20]
wheels. The
Steve Fretzin [18:21]
other piece of it, though, and Stewart, I don’t know how you feel about this. When I started doing business development coaching, it was probably only 5% maybe 10% branding. LinkedIn have a good infomercial, you know, basic stuff like that. Now I’m finding it’s maybe more like 20 or 30% of my time is helping people with content creation and starting to put themselves out there authentically, right? Because that’s in line with what you were and I were talking about. But they don’t know how to do that because they don’t. They’re so uncomfortable lawyers like getting out there and like creating content and being, you know, with a. I’m not saying you have to walk around with a selfie stick all day, but how do you sort of circle that square with this new world we’re living.
Stewart Hirsch [19:02]
It’s a really good question. I spend kind of interesting because I spend most of my coaching time helping people figure out what to say to the the contacts and clients because it can be awkward. They may have a friend that you even want to ask about business.
Steve Fretzin [19:17]
Sure,
Stewart Hirsch [19:18]
and it’s so it’s uncomfortable. And what I try and do is help change the mindset. Though no, you’re helping them. Everything you’re doing with another person should be helping. If you’re not helping, you shouldn’t be doing it. So, but the response to your your immediate question of using that being so much more important, I think LinkedIn is important, but not necessarily for branding. You don’t. I don’t think people have to brand themselves unless they’re like the leader of the pack in some way.
Steve Fretzin [19:45]
Okay.
Stewart Hirsch [19:46]
I mean, everybody is branded, no matter what you do, no matter how you describe yourself, no matter what you do. You are branding yourself in some way. So, but if you have, if you respond, if you are reading what other people are saying on LinkedIn and respond. To it that contributes to your brand, but it also creates the connection. So I’m more about the connect. My perspective is more about the connectivity. Most of the people I I work with do have a really strong number of connections that they’ve built over the years, and what they’re not doing is I hate the word taking advantage of, but making making it making the most benefit to both of them off from those people that they already know.
Steve Fretzin [20:29]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [20:29]
and those people know a lot of people. The branding is important for people that are more than just starting out, but certainly for starting out. But creating and having an expertise that you can become known for is relevant. So speaking and writing is good, and you need that credibility.
Steve Fretzin [20:47]
Hey everybody, your next big client might call at 8 p.m. on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up? With Lex Reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional, legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer to claim your offer, that’s www.lexreception.com/partners/v.lawyer. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzen here, and at Lawyer.com, they don’t just market law firms; they help them grow from connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry-leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com. Check them out today. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings.io today. But Stuart, here’s where we might differ dissect a little bit because I’m with you 100, maybe like five years ago or three years ago, but what I’m seeing right now is a massive shift in the way that people are perceived in the in the environment, the way that people are found in the environment, the people are referred in the environment. So, for example, you’re the top expert in employment law in New York City, and you’ve got relationships that refer you, but if you’re not staying consistent in front of them because you’re creating valuable content, education, information, getting your name is kind of buzzing around people, they might either go a different direction or not remember you. The other side of it is, it used to be the law firm, like you promote the law firm, and the law firm was the brand. Be that lawyer is the brand, but ultimately, you know, I’m the brand, or you’re the brand, or the lawyer at the big law firm. And the lawyer has always been like people choose lawyers, not law firms, in most instances. But I feel like you’re either today. I’m just saying today. I feel like you’re either in the game on the field playing the branding side of it, the content creation, how you get found on AI, or you’re kind of you’re waiting for the other shoe to drop that you may end up becoming antiquated or irrelevant. Not today, but maybe in a year or two when everyone has so much more content than you. Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [23:34]
I think you’re right. I mean, I’m not not going to backtrack too much because I that’s where I where I focus is more on that, but I think it’s a given that people have to do that. That’s a that’s the new table stakes.
Steve Fretzin [23:46]
Yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [23:47]
So, for example, you know, I look at my own business. What I’m what I do, you know, I keep telling, I keep saying, well, I’m not really doing anything to get out there. But in a couple weeks, I’m doing a program for the Association of Corporate Counsel on implicit gender, implicit bias, and then I’m writing writing an article about executive presence, and then I’m going to the that conference. I’m going to the ACC conference, but I’m not doing anything. Like, but it’s the truth is, it is doing things. But here’s the posting.
Steve Fretzin [24:12]
You obviously you are doing a lot, and other people will post about it. And the question is, is whether you or you have a team of people. But the new play for guys like us, because I do that too, right? Like I’m doing the I’m doing the symposium for solo small firm in in New York City in November, and that’s going to be recorded. That’s going to be taped. There’s gonna I’m gonna make sure there’s articles about it, and that’s all going to be repurposed and published and posted before I go, during I go, and after I go, that’s kind of like what we need to sort of consider is that we are creating content, but how are we leveraging it differently than maybe we did a number of years ago?
Stewart Hirsch [24:49]
Yeah, so I so I think that’s right. In fact, what I’ve been recommending to people, and I’m sure you do this too, is is if you’re going to create content, get the most out of it. Way to get the most out of it, for example, is if you’re invited to speak or get invited to speak, do it with somebody else. Do it with a client. Do it with someone you’d like to have as a client, and then that person will put it out there. You put it out there. I may say this stuff all the time, so I guess you know. For me, that’s just natural. Yeah, I don’t even think about it that way,
Steve Fretzin [25:20]
right? But lawyers need to do more of it. Like I’m saying, there are lawyers that are hiding behind their computers and under their desks or wherever they’re hiding, and they’re incredible lawyers. They’re the best. They could solve a problem for somebody in you know no time flat, and they’re unfindable because they’re just doing what they do. But they’re not. They’re right. And well, yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [25:40]
And then the question is, do they need to be? Do they need to be findable by specialty? And so, the so I’m working with a lot more of the people in either larger firms that already have a rep or people that already have a reputation. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [25:52]
yeah.
Stewart Hirsch [25:53]
So if someone types in their name, they better be findable easily,
Steve Fretzin [25:57]
right?
Stewart Hirsch [25:57]
And like, they better have at least a page devoted to them, and how do you do that? Well, you write or you speak or both. Also, you want to make sure that LinkedIn, when when someone posts something, make a comment on it. As soon as you make a comment, everyone in your feed will see it. Everyone in their feed will see it, and it gets you know it just expands. And so, so I think you’re right. I just don’t. I just talk about it. Like, okay, what are you doing about this? Yeah. Most of the people I work with are doing something, so I don’t worry about it. Okay, now what are you going to do with
Steve Fretzin [26:30]
it? Yeah. Now
Stewart Hirsch [26:30]
that you’ve done it. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [26:31]
yeah. What are you doing? I’m more focused on the what happened. I love that doing about it and doing with it. That’s great. So
Stewart Hirsch [26:37]
I’m more focused on the with it. Yeah. Because they haven’t done it. I do. I push to do it, but I don’t actually think of that as my main focus because a lot of people have done stuff, but they don’t take advantage of
Steve Fretzin [26:48]
- All right, let’s. I’ve got a few questions left for you before we wrap up, and one is if a lawyer is sitting there listening to this right now and look, everybody’s got a different path of as far as you know how they should business develop or market or brand or whatever, but if there was one thing that you found to be consistent with the top performers that you’ve worked with, what would that one thing be?
Stewart Hirsch [27:09]
Well, it’s the same. It’s kind of silly following up, talking to people, staying in touch. Yeah, yeah, it’s a big one. I have the two things. You know, I did a program. I did. I sat on a panel once, and I said, “What are the two biggest mistakes that people make? And I said, “Well, failing to set a next step, and then failing to follow up. Don’t do what you say you’re going to do.
Steve Fretzin [27:28]
Yeah, no, it’s
Stewart Hirsch [27:28]
very, it’s important. It creates reliability in the trust equation on the trusted advisor. People read that book. The following up is really part of doing what you say you’re going to do. And so, but if you don’t set a next step, it’s going to be hard to follow up, and I’ve had that happen with people. Like, so where’d you leave it? He said, “Oh, they said they’ll get back to me. Like, okay, you just you just lost control of the conversation, right?
Steve Fretzin [27:50]
Right.
Stewart Hirsch [27:51]
And how are you going to follow up? So you set the next steps so that you can follow up.
Steve Fretzin [27:54]
Yeah. So those are the two things. So people struggle just like using your calendar. Like, how are you? How do lawyers keep track of their clients and their strategic partners and the networking and all of this. Oh, I suggest
Stewart Hirsch [28:06]
the calendar.
Steve Fretzin [28:07]
Just using their calendar. Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [28:08]
I think the I think the you know unless a lot of firms have CRM systems, if those CRM systems work for them, great. I like simple, which is I tell people put it in the 7o’clock time frame, unless you’re out there doing stuff at 7o’clock in the morning, whenever something happens, put it in 7o’clock that you want to reach back to that person. And on the date when the date comes, either you will or you won’t. If you don’t, you got to move it forward and don’t move it forward too often or too many times.
Steve Fretzin [28:34]
Yeah, and the best thing is setting to your point. Set a next step at the end of the the end of the meeting. So you and I are wrapping up this podcast, and I say to you, you know, hey Stewart, I have something else that we should collaborate on, and we’re gonna let’s. I’ll email you after this for another date to get to. So don’t don’t like see you later, bye. And then you you know you have to follow up in a couple days, and then you forget. Like why not just like, even at a conference, pull out your phone. Like you and I want to meet. Just pull out the phone and get it knocked out. Like get it in. These are simple
Stewart Hirsch [29:07]
things. People don’t do the simple things. When they don’t do the simple things, they miss opportunities. They also people also don’t listen. If you know, I got this from reading the trust of the from talking to Charlie on the trusted advisor stuff. Is the listening and not jumping to the conclusion. You got to listen to the whole thing that people say.
Steve Fretzin [29:26]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [29:27]
give people a chance to say what’s on their minds. Otherwise, you miss opportunities.
Steve Fretzin [29:31]
Yeah, fantastic. All right. Well, I got I got one more opportunity for you, and that is to share what is Stewart’s big mistake.
Stewart Hirsch [29:37]
Okay, there were so many to choose from because you told me I was going to even ask me this question. So I just picked one. So the one I picked was when I first went in house, and you stop me if I go on too long. But when I first went in house, I was given the one project that was like the initiation. It was to extend the lease of the home office, big home office, big. Big lease, and I was negotiating like I did when I was an outside counsel. Like I, you know, don’t make sure it’s perfect. Make sure everything is exactly where it’s supposed to be and perfect, and so on. And I’m negotiating with the inside business person, so that’s good because I had somebody there, and I was posting with I was negotiating with a senior vice president, and and unbeknownst to me, we were getting towards winter, and this was going to be a very large addition. And they ordered the steel for the home office. And if that steel got there before we were done negotiating, we would have been in big trouble. And so, so the president of the company called me up and said, you know, if you don’t get this done by the end of the week, and that deal gets there, you’re going to be looking for another job. And he said, and so will your boss. Well, I didn’t know this, but my boss was with them, the general counsel, and they were all laughing. They thought this was hilarious,
Stewart Hirsch [30:56]
you know. But I didn’t, and I got it done. So the mistake was like thinking that you know when you go in house, you’re like a you’re just like an outside lawyer, like you can’t take any risks. But when you’re in when you’re inside, you are the client. You have to think like if they order this deal, I got a practical problem. If I don’t get that deal done, and that shows up. We got no leverage for anything, you know. We’re going away for 1,000%
Steve Fretzin [31:26]
So what’s the takeaway, you perfectionist? The takeaway
Stewart Hirsch [31:30]
in house helping helping the lawyers. When I work with the business, when I do business development, helping the outside, helping the lawyers that work with people inside, understanding what are their pressures, what are the things that are going on for them in the moment that they have to deal with, and helping them, coaching them, helping them figure out how to deal with
Steve Fretzin [31:49]
it,
Stewart Hirsch [31:49]
because they don’t have the luxury of saying, “Well, you could go this way, you could go that way. If you accept it, here’s the risk. They can’t think like that. They have to say, “Well, here’s what I think we should do and why?
Steve Fretzin [32:01]
Yeah,
Stewart Hirsch [32:01]
and that brought the thing home. That brought the point home for me, and it made a big difference on the rest of my career. Especially when I’m working with outside counsel, I think like an inside lawyer, if like a like a business like a decision maker. Why? How do the decision makers think? And that’s really important for them when they’re selling to them or when they’re trying to figure out how to help them in you know with their legal work, and also when they’re advising them on how to how to think.
Steve Fretzin [32:25]
Yeah, some good you know it’s good yeah it’s good to have that experience to be able to coach people. If you know if I it wasn’t
Stewart Hirsch [32:31]
good to have that experience.
Steve Fretzin [32:32]
Yeah, I mean there are people that don’t have experiences that you know let’s say you know again when I started working in legal I didn’t have any not not a lawyer but I mean, I didn’t have any experience. But were they that different then financial planners and accountants? And yeah, of course they were. But you know, you sort of have to figure things out quickly. And eventually, you know, I could probably fake being a lawyer if I wanted to. I won’t do that. So let’s take a moment. Let’s thank our incredible sponsors. Of course, PimCon, the number one personal injury mastermind conference coming up in October. Check that out, everybody. Lex Reception, you should not be answering your phones. Let leave it to the professionals, friends at Lex Reception. Of course, lawyer.com, top directory for lawyers. Stuart, people want to get in touch with you. They want to hear more. They want to check you out online. What are the best digits?
Stewart Hirsch [33:16]
Well, my strategicrelationships.com.
Steve Fretzin [33:21]
There you go. Is
Stewart Hirsch [33:21]
my is that my website and Stuart just look up my name? Stuart S T E W A R T and H I R S C H are my how you spell my name and I think I’m the only one on LinkedIn spelled that way.
Steve Fretzin [33:36]
Yeah. Okay.
Stewart Hirsch [33:37]
And my phone, which is you’re going to post that. I think so. It’s
Steve Fretzin [33:40]
all in the show notes. I just like people to say it so that they are repetitive to what I’m putting. No, I mean some people like to hear it, and some people like to like if you’re on your phone, you just you know figure it out, like look it up, or or some people go in the show notes.
Stewart Hirsch [33:52]
Yeah, texts are good too.
Steve Fretzin [33:54]
Okay, I texting is nobody. I so nobody should be calling me, but everybody should be texting me and and even like those are those are naturals, yeah. But the texting, I’m very responsive on texting, but nobody. Yeah, I am too. Just my clients. I’m
Stewart Hirsch [34:07]
responsive on on texting and on emails, but I can’t stand when I get calls from people that want to know if I’m the homeowner and whether I want a
Steve Fretzin [34:15]
new. I have to watch. I have to watch Seinfeld reruns to like hear how he deals with like like sales calls, they had some good good line good.
Stewart Hirsch [34:24]
I had someone screaming on the I had I had my the movie on or something, and they called the off hours and and they were like screaming. There was gunfighting going on, and I just put the I put my headset over to that. I said, “No, get away! You
Steve Fretzin [34:37]
love me! Oh, that’s classic. Ah, you got to have a good sense of humor to do that to freak people out. Listen, this has been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, thank you, Stuart. This has been great, and and hopefully everybody you got as much out of it as I did, and you know the stories and the concepts and the philosophies and the the actual tactical things that you learned here today really important to help you be that lawyer, confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. You know, build that book. Everybody own that future and be that lawyer. That’s what it’s all about here.
Stewart Hirsch [35:04]
Love it.
Steve Fretzin [35:05]
Thanks, Stuart. Appreciate you.
Stewart Hirsch [35:06]
Thank you for having me, Steve.
Steve Fretzin [35:07]
Yeah, and thank you, everybody. Take care. Be safe and well. We will continue to talk again soon.
Narrator [35:17]
Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website fretzin.com for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.
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