How can a law firm grow while protecting its people and its reputation? Scott Rahn shares how relationship-building, values-based hiring, and honest conversations can help firms serve clients well without burning out their teams.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Scott Rahn discuss:
- Long-term friendships and professional relationships
- Scott’s path into private wealth disputes
- Generational differences in law firms
- Values-based hiring and firm culture
- Sustainable growth and work-life balance
Key Takeaways:
- Strong relationships and mutual support are more lasting measures of success than professional accolades.
- Hire for shared values, not just credentials; one poor fit can disrupt an entire team.
- Turning down work can be wiser than overcommitting and damaging client service or team morale.
- Open conversations help firms understand what employees need as their priorities change.
- Retaining a strong performer at reduced capacity can be better for a business than losing them altogether.
“How disruptive it can be to let the wrong person into the organization… So it has to start at hiring, and you have to be very clear about who your people are, who you’re looking to hire, and be very consistent.” — Scott Rahn
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About Scott Rahn: Scott Rahn is the Founding Partner of RMO Lawyers, where he leads a premier trust, estate, and probate litigation practice dedicated to resolving high-stakes inheritance disputes, breach of fiduciary duty claims, and financial elder abuse cases. Drawing on extensive trial, arbitration, and mediation experience, he represents heirs, beneficiaries, trustees, and executors across California and internationally, focusing on swift, cost-effective resolutions that navigate complex family dynamics. Recognized as “Trusts and Estates Litigator of the Year” by the Century City Bar Association and listed in Chambers High Net Worth Guide and Lawdragon 500, Scott is President Emeritus of the Beverly Hills Estate Planning Council and a frequent media commentator on wealth transfer and estate disputes.
Connect with Scott Rahn:
Website: https://rmolawyers.com/team/scott-rahn/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:02]
Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, I want to just share another quick LinkedIn recommendation from my client and friend Blake Stroudon’s in the Be That Lawyer community. He says, “What impresses me most is the community he’s built through the Be That Lawyer. It’s not just another networking group or coaching program. It’s a group of accomplished attorneys who openly share ideas, successes, challenges, and support one another. The relationships, insights, and accountability that come from being part of a community are invaluable. I want to thank you, Blake, for being a great leader in the community. I hope you guys can check it out at bethatlawyer.com/community. Check it out, and we’ll see you soon and enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:46]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [01:08]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here, and welcome, welcome, welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. If you didn’t know this, if you were unsure that this is our only podcast, that is not the case. We also have future rainmakers. It is a combination of me being asked questions and me helping you with specific systems and business development Q and A. I also bring on clients and some guest stars to have some dialog. So check it out, future Rainmakers on all major podcast channels similar to this. Also on my website fretzin.com or be that lawyer.com, Scott. We go back quite a ways, man. How you doing?
Scott Rahn [01:44]
I’m well, thank you. You’re great.
Steve Fretzin [01:46]
Yeah, for those of you don’t know, like Scott and I headed off right away because I married a Milwaukee girl, and he’s a rural Wisconsin guy living out in the big city. And so right away, I think we kind of we kind of said we had the Midwestern values or Midwestern sort of I don’t know, demeanor. So good to have you back on the show. It’s been too long, and that’s on me.
Scott Rahn [02:05]
Yeah, so it’s nice, nice to be here. Really good to see
Steve Fretzin [02:08]
you. Yeah. All right. Well, let’s jump in. You’ve got a quote. You’re actually going to give the quote today, Lee Iacocca. So let’s jump in and and what does that quote sound like?
Scott Rahn [02:16]
Yeah, it’s it’s an oldie but a goodie. Lee said, “My father always used to say that when you die, if you’ve got five real friends, then you’ve had a great life, and it is apropos for for me and in my life, and specifically with regard to the firm, because my partner Sean, who is the M in RMO. He and I are celebrating our 25th year of friendship this year. So we’ve been partners here at RMO for a little more than a dozen years, so a little more than half of that time. But we met as summer associates even before we were lawyers back in 2001. Yeah, here we are, 25 years later, still still doing this thing. I mean,
Steve Fretzin [03:05]
how do you celebrate that? Do you put a ring on his finger? Do you take him on a special trip?
Scott Rahn [03:10]
I don’t think that’s how we would do it, and we’re not going to do it that way. All right, you look like throwing out
Steve Fretzin [03:17]
ideas. You don’t have to take them.
Scott Rahn [03:19]
Yeah, just by just by honoring and appreciating him, to be honest, we you know he’s in Orange County, runs our Orange County office, and we had our Orange County anniversary party earlier. Well, actually, last month it’s now October. Yeah, and so we did a little presentation for him, just kind of walking through the last 25 years of our relationship, our friendship in the firm, and just really tipping my cap to him because you know being being a lawyer is hard. Being friends with a lawyer is hard. You work with a lot of lawyers. You can appreciate that probably more than most. Yeah. But you know, you just I think the quote is important because relationships matter, like our relationship. Yeah, this is ultimately this is what matters at the end of your life. Yeah, I can say, man, I did something right.
Steve Fretzin [04:09]
Yeah, you’re right, Scott. And you know people that you know they just they never put out the effort and they never like took care of others in a way that made them want to reciprocate, and they end up kind of older and alone. And I can tell you, they’re not-they’re not real happy. Yeah. You know, you want to make sure you surround yourself and you take care of your friends, and you’re there for them when they need you, so that when they when you need when they need you, you know, then then they’re there.
Scott Rahn [04:33]
Yeah. Yeah. There’s an old Johnny Cash song called Nobody, and essentially the theme of the song is that nobody’s ever done anything for him, so he’s never going to do anything for anybody. Yeah, yeah. Either, but yeah, what a lonely existence that would be.
Steve Fretzin [04:46]
Johnny Cash always so uplifting. Yeah, shout out to Johnny Cash. You always know how to bring me up, buddy. I’m in Folsom Prison, waiting to die, and you know whatever. So,
Scott Rahn [04:56]
what one of my favorites, man, American legend.
Steve Fretzin [04:59]
Yeah. He is. He is good movie too, by the way. People haven’t seen the Johnny Cash movie with Joaquin Phoenix. Holy mackerel, that’s a good. Yeah,
Scott Rahn [05:05]
they did a good job.
Steve Fretzin [05:06]
I think it might be my wife’s favorite. We were talking about like, what’s your favorite? This is a total rant. Like, what’s your favorite like like biopic for you know? Is it the one on you know Bohemian Rhapsody with Queen? Is it the one with you know Elton John is it, and she she pulled that rabbit out of a hat. She was like the Johnny Cash. That was a that was epic. So
Scott Rahn [05:26]
yeah, that was someone I agreed with Reese Witherspoon did a really good job too.
Speaker 2 [05:29]
Who is it?
Scott Rahn [05:30]
Reese Witherspoon did. Oh yeah, God, is June.
Steve Fretzin [05:32]
She’s yeah, she thinks she’s doing okay for herself. She a billionaire yet?
Scott Rahn [05:36]
Yeah, I think she’s doing all right.
Steve Fretzin [05:38]
Yeah, all right. Well, listen, man. Everybody, Scott Rahn, amazing guy, founding partner of RMO LLP out of LA, and love to get a little just for audience, like tell it to give a little bit of your background, like how you came to be.
Scott Rahn [05:54]
Yikes, it’s a long story, like most of the good ones. Grew up farming in rural Wisconsin, meandered my way into college, stumbled perhaps some might say after working nights in construction and factories and all those kinds of things, but found my path back to law, which is I wanted to be a lawyer since I was in the fifth grade. So found my way to law and found my way to Southern California by by hook or crook through a friend who had been a marine out here at Pendleton, and gave me an opportunity to to move to SoCal and went to law school here and made friends with someone who offered me my first job, me on the path to doing what we do today, which is private wealth disputes. So anything dealing with contested inheritances, financial elder abuse, etc. and it was really that first firm and a a mentor and and partner at the firm who took a chance on me and brought me a case and said, you know, it’s probate, it’s weird, it has its own set of rules. You’re smart, you’ll figure it out, and I figured it out. And I think the most important thing that came out of that case for me really was just my exposure to the probate court and the probate community, which is really small and it’s very, it’s very homogenous in the sense that everybody knows everybody, right? And you really you you like a small community, like the one I grew up in. You know, you get to know the people, and you know who you can trust and who you can’t, and it allows you to, frankly, just do better work for your clients, right? Because ultimately, what what every client wants is a solution, right, to whatever’s in front of them, whether it’s transactional or or litigation, and it allows us to, based on those relationships, I think, get better results for people sooner and very often for less legal spend. Well, and it’s well needed
Steve Fretzin [07:43]
because when people when people that with money die, the family loses their fricking minds. Like they they change. I have a I’m not going to say who specifically, but let’s just say someone I know has a great aunt, and when a great uncle died and left had some money left, not a lot, but some money, and she just started demanding things from the family. Like at the at the, we’re sitting shivy, and she was like going nuts about what she wanted and what she felt was hers, and like the family basically disowned her. Like I don’t, I have a first cousin I never talked to because of this. Because
Scott Rahn [08:18]
of that, yeah, but it’s it’s sad.
Steve Fretzin [08:20]
It’s so sad. It’s so sad, and just blew up the whole her whole relationship with everyone in the family for the last, you know, probably over over 35 years. So look,
Scott Rahn [08:31]
every everybody has a similar experience to your friend with his great my
Steve Fretzin [08:36]
friend,
Scott Rahn [08:37]
right?
Steve Fretzin [08:38]
Yeah, thank you. Air quotes.
Scott Rahn [08:39]
Because we all have family, yeah, right, and we’re all susceptible to those same types of emotions and whatever the driving force is. It doesn’t always have to be a personality disorder, although it frequently is a personality disorder,
Steve Fretzin [08:54]
yeah,
Scott Rahn [08:54]
or some kind of mental illness. But it’s really just the fact that we’re humans, and when you have that kind of loss and trauma, people you know don’t behave the way they normally would, and sometimes people do really stupid things because they’re not thinking clearly.
Speaker 3 [09:13]
And
Scott Rahn [09:13]
you know, I think one of the things we try to do here in our practice is you know take a human first approach and really try to examine the issues, obviously with a legal lens at the same time, but with a human lens, and say, you know, what’s really going on here, right? Is this behavior consistent with your great aunt’s, you know, experiences the last, you know, 40 years, or wait, who said it was my
Steve Fretzin [09:36]
great aunt?
Scott Rahn [09:37]
Your friend’s great aunt, my bad. Or is it? Or is it something that’s just kind of coming out of left field, and so it takes. You might need to take a different approach.
Steve Fretzin [09:47]
Yeah, yeah. Well, you mentioned you mentioned traumatic, and I’m going to pull a segue out of my rear end and say, you know what else is traumatic is how different generations working in the same firms. Trying to get along, right? I mean, you got in some cases four or five generations all trying to work side by side, and everybody’s got. But you know, the more just just putting this out there, like to maybe set us up. Like my dad used to like watch me watching like cartoons, like the Super Friends from the 70s, and like cartoons even into like my teenage years in the 80s, or like watching wrestling, like the WWF back in the 80s was awesome, and some people still love it. You know, I got over it when I was 15, but I just got hammed for watching the new He Man Masters of the Universe. I like that movie. That movie was pretty good,
Scott Rahn [10:35]
which I had to watch. Grew up on He Man of our childhood.
Steve Fretzin [10:38]
Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. And my point of me bringing that up is that you know then my watch me you know my my son is watching like TikTok videos and stuff that I think is stupid and pointless, which it is. But then to him it’s like entertaining, and he’s laughing and giggling in his bedroom, and I go, “What the heck is going on in there? So it’s it’s you know just history repeating itself. But but give us your kind of take on like why. Let’s start off with I like to start with problems. We’re like why is it problematic to have you know the Gen X and the Millennials and the Gen Zs like kind of all crowded into a firm? It’s
Scott Rahn [11:12]
a great, great conversation piece because we’re all solve the world’s
Steve Fretzin [11:18]
problems. Go
Scott Rahn [11:19]
here it is, because we’re all different, right? We were all raised different, right? I mean, even when you just think about how we raised our kids versus how we were raised,
Steve Fretzin [11:30]
yeah, we’re
Scott Rahn [11:31]
both Gen X, right? We had freedoms, right? We made mistakes. Nobody knew about them, right? Except for maybe our best friends, you know, who would clown us about it quietly, you know, or in front of our other friends. But it’s just-it’s so difficult when you have so many different generations in one organization, and they come with a different set of values because they had a different set of experiences. And with the newer generations, so many different influences, right? You mentioned cartoons, WWE. It was WWF back then,
Steve Fretzin [12:08]
yeah.
Scott Rahn [12:09]
Now WWE, but you had influences, but there were fewer of them, but many more than our parents’ generation, and multiples more than our grandparents. So right now you mentioned your son and and TikTok. I mean the number of influencers just on that one platform, right? So it’s not like TikTok is one platform and it’s one feed. It’s one platform with millions and millions and millions of feeds and millions and millions of different voices, and it’s it’s naturally targeting you based upon your preferences, so it becomes kind of that echo chamber. So, you know, we could turn the channel, but there weren’t that many channels in the beginning. Right, we got a little older; there were more channels. But let me let me just share
Steve Fretzin [12:53]
something real quick, Scott. Before we go on, just just for the people to know how truly old I am, that we had a TV with a dial on it, and the dial came off like it was broken. So the dial came off. So you would change the channel to what you want, and then you’d hold onto the dial so that your siblings couldn’t change the channel because they just walk in and just put on whatever they want and screw you. This is this is this is our generation.
Scott Rahn [13:19]
It is our generation. That’s why I did this movement when I was talking about turnkey. Yeah, yeah, we would do the same thing. You pull it off of there, right? I don’t know that if it was broken or not, but you pull it off, and then nobody can change the chain.
Steve Fretzin [13:32]
That’s it. Yeah. Although I think I think we figured out that we could also get a needle-nose pliers and and then manually turn it, which upset everybody further,
Scott Rahn [13:41]
but this is this is us facing adversity, right? Adversity was someone took the TV knob off, and you had to problem solve that,
Steve Fretzin [13:50]
right? But we’ve got so we so you mentioned about you know different ways of of being brought up and different value systems and and you know I’m saying history repeats itself, but there are differences between the generations, and you have, you know, as as a managing partner, you have to you have to be able to relate to them all. You have to be able to get buy in from them all, loyalty. Like it doesn’t matter what generation. That’s your job as the as the as the leader. You’ve got to lead. So how how do you pull that off, and how what kind of tips can you give to other people trying to build firms?
Scott Rahn [14:24]
I think the single most important role that you have to play is in your hiring processes to make sure that you’re looking for the right people and ultimately screening for and and hiring the right people. Yeah, there are so many people who are not a fit for RMO. Right, our values are are very clear, and we’re very consistent about them. And we we always say we’re very protective about the people we allow in the halls. Right, we’ve. Had a significant amount of success. We’ve had a significant amount of growth. We’ve also learned some things, right? Either you’re successful or or or you learn. So we’ve learned. But I think one of the biggest learnings we’ve had is that is just I’ll say it this way: just how disruptive it can be to let the wrong person into the organization for so many different reasons. So it has to start at hiring, and have to be very clear about who your people are, who you’re looking to hire, and be very consistent about making sure that the only people that you bring in are people who share your firm values and how you take care of people? Because at the end of the day, that’s what we’re all here to do, right? We’re here to take care of our clients and each other.
Steve Fretzin [15:49]
Scott, I love everything you’re saying. The wrench that’s being thrown into the mix, really, in the last-I mean, I could say a number of years, but like in particular, the last year or two-is that there’s a shortage of associates. There’s a there’s a an issue with with with you know like people that are that are being pulled away from firms and being offered big bucks and and all of that. And you you know you find a great candidate on paper. You find a great candidate that that has done the work that you need done. They’re asking for more than they should because of the current state of affairs, but yet you know that they don’t fit the culture. Maybe the work ethic. Maybe it’s the it’s the culture of you know helping each other out. You know, just like being a team player, whatever it might be. How do you navigate those waters?
Scott Rahn [16:38]
Yeah, it’s it’s really challenging, and I think the the difficult ask in those circumstances is to say no to the work that you want that you know you can help clients with because you know you can’t staff it appropriately. So it is something that we had to really sit down and think meaningfully about to say, you know, look, these are the resources that we have at our disposal, right? And this is the leverage that we can utilize to get results for our clients the way that we get results. And if we take too much, or if we if we feed too heartily, all we’re gonna do is get indigestion, and we’re not here. I think a lot of firms suffer from that problem, where they just they overconsume, they burn out their team, right? Burn out their lawyers, burn out their paralegals, and then you have a situation where you had good people, right, and you got away from your value,
Steve Fretzin [17:42]
yeah,
Scott Rahn [17:42]
right. And you put yourself in a position where you you can’t treat your people the way that you want to treat them because you put your business and your clients in a position where the team needs to give more than than maybe it should.
Steve Fretzin [17:56]
And there’s a balance, right? I mean, there’s the opportunistic side of there’s money on the table that we could be bringing in, and then there’s the fear of of upsetting internally and externally the attorneys and the staff and the clients ultimately. And you’re you’re suggesting very clearly and wisely to err on the on the side of doing great work and providing great value and not upsetting people for for an extra buck,
Scott Rahn [18:22]
that’s exactly right. I mean, look, the you have to come at this with an attitude of abundance, right? If you’ve had success, you’re going to continue to have success. You have to believe that you continue to do the do the work, you continue to build the relationships, build the community, and and do the work that supports the reputation that you’ve earned, and that will continue to to feed the business. I think it’s the attitude of scarcity that lends itself to it. Almost becomes greed out of fear, and then you find yourself in a position where you’ve overcommitted yourself. You’ve overcommitted your team, right? You’ve overcommitted to clients, and you’re the only thing that’s going to suffer is your reputation because you’re not going to be able to do that. And the worst side of it is you’re going to end up burning out your team, and then you’re going to lose the good people. And then now you’re replacing
Steve Fretzin [19:13]
good people, which is now like now you’re in a vicious cycle of it was hard enough to hire anyone and and for a reasonable you know, amount, and now you’re losing your your team, your best players because you you burn them out.
Scott Rahn [19:26]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [19:27]
exactly. Yeah. Wow. Hey, everybody. Your next big client might call it 8 p.m. on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up? With Lex Reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional, legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.lexreception.com. Com/partners/bethlawyer to claim your offer. That’s www.lexreception.com/partners/bethlawyer. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzen here, and at Lawyer.com, they don’t just market law firms; they help them grow from connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry-leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s lawyer.com. Check them out today. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings.io today. So, okay, you know we’ve got the Gen X, you know, stereotype of hardworking work ethic. You know, you mentioned like working at night and and and kind of working your way through. And you know, my father Larry, the lawyer, the late great Larry, the lawyer. I talk about growing up in the projects, and I mean, I’ve been working since I’m 12, babysitting and and shoveling snow and whatever, and never have not worked. I’ve always worked, and now you know I’m passing that value on to my son, who now has an opportunity to go to football games at school. But he’s not. He’s going to work the whole weekend. I didn’t ask him to work, and he doesn’t need the money. Like he has money in the bank. He worked all summer. He has not spent any of it. That’s just his mindset now, and he. I think he’s going to get a tattoo between you and me. A second one. The first one’s him, you know, the walleye fishing. But you’ve got people that that are smart and that understand, like you can work yourself to death, or you can have balance, and like like that’s the younger generation’s mindset. Is like, why am I working myself to death when I should be enjoying life along the way? So, so how do you work with your folks that have that mindset? They will work and they will work hard, but they also want the balance, and they don’t want to make their job their whole life.
Scott Rahn [22:10]
I think it’s it all starts with the discussion, right? I mean, I think just having open and honest discussions as part of that vetting process, as part of your recruiting process about what it is that they want, what’s important to them, and the more open and honest and candid you are, I think more open and honest and candid the candidates become, and they’ll tell you right what they’re what they want, what’s important to them, what their priorities are, and sometimes those priorities may not align with you know your values or or what you need from them, and you may end up having to pass on that candidate because it’s simply not a fit, right? I mean, same thing goes on the other side. You know, we’re not looking for people who want to come here, and I think the the most hours last year that were billed were like 3800 hours at you know one of the big law firms. Like we’re not looking to have somebody here who’s you know churning hours and you know lives in the office and you know doesn’t have a life. Like there’s work life balance. The word work comes first, so it is work life balance, right? But
Steve Fretzin [23:19]
write that down. Work life balance. Work comes
Speaker 4 [23:20]
first.
Scott Rahn [23:21]
Work comes. Well, work comes first. I need well. Work.
Steve Fretzin [23:23]
Work helps you with the life. Like you can’t have the life balance. Like I know somebody who just wants to be. Like doesn’t want to work. Yeah. Just wants to be. I just want to be. I go. What? What? What is that? Is that a new? Is that a new thing? You can just be. Well, who’s paying for you to be? Like B doesn’t doesn’t you know there’s you know that means living in a box you could be somewhere I mean that’s not you know you got if you’re able mind and body you’re you’re working like there’s no other option.
Scott Rahn [23:50]
Well, it’s like the story about your son, right? I mean there is value that you get out of being productive as a human being. Yeah, it makes you feel good. Makes you yeah, makes you feel good. It gives you confidence that look, I can do this, and then I can do the next thing, and maybe I’ll, you know, grow into another role, or maybe I’ll start my own business, or you know, maybe I’ll go try this, or maybe I’ll go travel, or whatever it is. It just it helps you feel capable of doing things, which allows you to then go and do the next thing,
Steve Fretzin [24:22]
right? So I think every everyone listening, whether you’re you’re the the lawyer looking to get a job, maybe you need to be very clear about what you want in your life and what motivates you and what drives you, and and make sure that it’s a fit. Because if you join the wrong the wrong place, then you’re flipping jobs in six months to a year because you realize this is not the culture, the environment that’s for me. It didn’t align, and you just took a paycheck. You know they offered you a big, big number because they needed a body, but it’s not the right thing for you. And on your side, Scott, you’re you’re qualifying people in or out based on what culture, work ethic. Interest, motivation, what I mean. What are the what are the top three for you?
Scott Rahn [25:04]
I mean, are you a good person?
Steve Fretzin [25:06]
Good person. Are you
Scott Rahn [25:08]
are you a bona fide human being? Who who I honestly who? Yeah, no, I’m
Steve Fretzin [25:14]
laughing because it’s it’s it’s the most basic thing, but it’s like yeah, there’s a lot of a holes, and we don’t necessarily need them around us.
Scott Rahn [25:21]
Yeah, that’s that’s exactly right. I mean, do you do you care about yourself? Do you care about people, right? Do you care about your community, right? Do you care about your reputation? And are you willing, you know, going to the work ethic? Are you willing to do the work to to be really excellent at what you do and grow and be be a lifetime learner, right, man? I learn things every day, right? I love AI because it allows me to consume so much more learning, yeah, and in more depth and detail than I would be able to without it, right? And you know, so are you a good person? Are you committed to doing the right thing? Are you someone who is a lifetime learner? You know, is interested in growth and becoming a better person, better lawyer, right? But just a better person, a more participatory member of the world.
Speaker 5 [26:16]
Yeah.
Scott Rahn [26:16]
And then the the last piece is, do you like winning, right? Because if you don’t like winning, you know you probably shouldn’t be a litigator. Yeah, right, and that’s all we do. So, I mean, are you someone who’s driven to do a really good job for the client? And winning could be a settlement, right? Winning could be at pulling out of the case altogether and telling the client, “Look, you came to us with this set of facts, and all of the other facts are opposite you, right? This is not something you should continue to pursue or spend money on. And winning obviously is at trial. We’re heading into trial here again, weeks. But are you driven to succeed? Not just for yourself, right? But obviously for yourself, but for your clients, for the people that you’re taking care of, right? That you’re duty bound to care for.
Steve Fretzin [27:06]
Yeah, and obviously, I’m you know working with lawyers who are not only interested in finding great talent to do the work and everything, but many of them were talking about questions and identifying people that are interested in growing with the firm. They want to elevate from associate to partner to equity someday, and they want to do business development. They want to learn and they want to contribute, and that could be a factor. But again, you know, you got to sort of make sure that you have questions prepared. Make sure you’ve got a good process for how you qualify in or out. And I think lawyers that that are interviewing and just off the cuff, not not a great idea, and not going to make things as predictable. So
Scott Rahn [27:47]
well, and I think also understanding that every stage that we all go through is is simply an experiment until the next stage, right? So even if this is your commitment currently, your life may change. I mean, you have a family. I have a family. That changes your lens. It changes your priorities, right? And I think one of the big misnomers in many industries-it’s not just the legal industry-is this idea that to have a family, you have to give up, right? Or you have to, you know, you have to not have a family to be successful in law, right? And it’s to your earlier comment about balance, right? It’s it’s finding that balance, and the reality is, is most firms have matured to to this point today where we’re willing to have conversations, right? If you’re a good person who does good work and takes care of people, right, and likes to win, and you have something going on in your life that requires a different approach, right, that’s a conversation, right, because the value that you add, even if it was you’re at 100% value, and now you you need to be at 80 80% of 100% value is way better than a you know 60% of 80% value or 80% of
Speaker 6 [29:14]
60%
Scott Rahn [29:14]
value. So you know I think it’s the idea that I think a lot of people are afraid to have those conversations, right? To say, “Look, my situation’s changing, and I think what I need is this. Is this something we could try? Is this something we could experiment with, right? And the honest to God truth is, I think most business owners, especially with good employees, right, want to have that conversation, right? It may it may turn out that no, it’s not going to work, right? But I think people are so caught up in the notion that it’s it’s black and white, it’s A or B, that they’re not having those conversations. And the reality is, is that. Most businesses would rather have a star performer performing at 80% capacity and compensate them appropriately, right? Than just lose somebody who performs.
Steve Fretzin [30:14]
Yeah. Well, I think we’re probably going to wrap up almost on that point. But Scott, I don’t know. This is your first time going through this because it’s been a while. What’s Scott’s big mistake?
Scott Rahn [30:24]
I think my big mistake perhaps was leaving my first law firm, the one that my partner and I grew up at. He had already left, so he blazed the trail. But I went from that firm to big law, and the firm really was was not a fit. The litigation group was affectionately referred to as the snake pit. Didn’t know that when I went through my interview. Oh, they didn’t share
Steve Fretzin [30:47]
that. Didn’t share that with you in the interview.
Scott Rahn [30:49]
It wasn’t on the posting.
Steve Fretzin [30:51]
They didn’t have that on their website. God,
Scott Rahn [30:53]
and my my recruiter didn’t share with me either. You
Steve Fretzin [30:55]
had a great career.
Scott Rahn [30:57]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [30:57]
you love this place. They got a snake pit and everything.
Scott Rahn [31:00]
Yeah. Oh, it sounds amazing, but that it it turned out to be such a huge blessing because I was able to maneuver myself into specifically into the trust and estates department, where I was mentored by a very senior planner who forced me to do planning, taught me how to do admins, and we did some really sophisticated things, and I learned so so much from him, and it it helped shape my approach to my practice today. So it it certainly felt like a mistake. I think I was probably a month into that job and went and had drinks with my best friend from law school, and he said that was the new gig and I said I think I hate it and I certainly was not happy and was questioning you know why I did it but it really turned out to be a huge blessing and really helps you know set the the the path for you know where we are today and everything that RMO does
Steve Fretzin [32:00]
yeah well really fantastic. Hey, let’s take a moment. Thank our incredible sponsors. Of course, you guys know the Be That Lawyer community here for you for your associates. I don’t work with law firms, but putting someone in an online community with a bunch of rainmakers not a terrible idea. Rising tide lifts all boats in the Be That Lawyer community. Check it out at be that lawyer.com/community. Also, of course, Rankings.io, great lead generation company for, in particular, personal injury firms. Lawyer.com for making sure your listing is done properly and you’re getting found online. And Lex Reception: Do not, under any circumstances, not answer your phones or not answer them 24/7, or answer them yourself. If you’re busy lawyer, use Lex Reception. Scott, people want to get in touch with you. They want to join your firm. They loved everything about the interview conversation. What are your digits?
Scott Rahn [32:53]
424-320-9444, and you can always find me@rmoyers.com.
Steve Fretzin [33:02]
Yeah, you’ve always been incredibly generous around collaborating with me. I want to tell you I appreciate that. Are we going to see you out in LA in the next week or two?
Scott Rahn [33:11]
I will be here. Head like I said, heading in the trial middle of the month. So I’m not going anywhere for a while. So
Steve Fretzin [33:16]
all right, I might pop in say hello to you. I’m coming in. Yeah, coming in soon. All right, thanks, man. I appreciate you, and I appreciate everybody listening and taking in all this great content and this conversation with me and Scott today, helping you to build your book and own that future and Be That Lawyer. Everybody, take care, be safe and well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [33:38]
Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.
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