High-performing young lawyers are more willing than ever to walk if a firm won’t invest in them. In this episode, Steve and Cheryl unpack what it really takes to build a culture of connection, mentoring, and resilience that keeps top legal talent thriving instead of burning out.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Cheryl Donaldson discuss:
- Mark Twain quote, risk-taking, and non-linear careers
- Early travel, psychology training, and “Lead from the Soul”
- Parenting, modeling behavior, and long-game training with kids
- How Gen Z and young associates think about big law, AI, and mobility
- Law firm culture, connection vs. disconnection, and practical retention strategies
Key Takeaways:
- Taking risks and embracing non-linear career moves creates depth, perspective, and resilience that ultimately make professionals more effective and fulfilled.
- Whether with children or associates, change comes from consistent training over time, not one-off conversations or quick fixes.
- The newest generation of lawyers is highly thoughtful about how they want to live and work—and they will leave if a firm’s culture doesn’t align with their values.
- Connection, structure, and clear expectations are the three pillars of a healthy firm; without all three, feedback and performance demands quickly backfire.
- In a tech-heavy, hybrid world, leaders must intentionally replace lost in-person contact with deliberate relational touchpoints if they want loyalty, sustainability, and long-term talent.
“They’re going to be confident to leave if they’re not getting what they need or what they want. They’re going to be mobile.” — Cheryl Donaldson
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About Cheryl Donaldson: Cheryl Donaldson is a licensed marriage and family therapist, consultant, international speaker, and author of Lead from the Soul. Drawing on more than 30 years of clinical experience, she works with individuals, organizations, and legal professionals to strengthen leadership, wellbeing, and workplace culture through the integration of psychology, spirituality, and self-leadership.
Connect with Cheryl Donaldson:
Website: https://www.cheryldonaldsonlmft.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cheryl-donaldson-ma-lmft-lcpc-3b9254292/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
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Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
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Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at be that lawyer.com/community And other than that, please enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:29]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fritzen will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.
Steve Fretzin [00:51]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here, and welcome to the Be That Lawyer podcast. We are here for you twice a week, every week, and have for the last six plus years. This show is all about helping you be that lawyer. You know, build your book, own your future. Let’s do it. This is the way to do it. We try to give you actionable takeaways that you can, you know, use every day to work to grow your practice. If you’re looking for a little more intention than that, check out the Be That Lawyer community. This is where we have direct events with me. We have a network of rainmakers you can confide in and work with. We have networking. We have a ton of content there. So instead of doom scrolling, you know, on LinkedIn or on Instagram, you can go and this is an app on your phone, and you can doom scroll there. But you’ll be micro learning. You’ll be networking. You’ll be asking questions. It’s a really engaging app. So we wanted you to check that out. Go to bethatlawyworder.com/community to check that out and learn more. And that’s all I have to say about that. Cheryl, how are you?
Cheryl Donaldson [01:48]
I’m good. How are you?
Steve Fretzin [01:50]
Good. It’s so nice to nice to have you here. And I know we’re gonna we’re gonna get into the weeds and help a lot of lawyers today. You know who else helped a lot of lawyers? Mark Twain. I don’t know. He helped a lot of lawyers. He probably didn’t.
Cheryl Donaldson [02:01]
He was a lawyer, wasn’t he? Maybe I think he was a lawyer. That’s very good. So I don’t know. He
Steve Fretzin [02:06]
helped a lot of lawyers,
Cheryl Donaldson [02:07]
but maybe encouraged them. I don’t know. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [02:11]
but he did have a. And do you know how he got his name?
Cheryl Donaldson [02:13]
I don’t, because that’s not his name. But I don’t know how he got. That’s not his real name. Maybe Mark Swain. Yes, I do know that, but I don’t know. There’s a
Steve Fretzin [02:20]
thing I learned, like when I was eight years old, about him being on the front of a ship, and they they yell out Mark Twain, which is what six feet below the ship, below the boat, so they could let you let them know there’s no boulders or things that are going to take the ship out.
Cheryl Donaldson [02:32]
Okay,
Steve Fretzin [02:33]
how about
Cheryl Donaldson [02:33]
that? There you want some pull out some
Steve Fretzin [02:35]
grade school memories for everybody today. I
Cheryl Donaldson [02:38]
love that.
Steve Fretzin [02:39]
Don’t ask me what his original name was, because I don’t remember. Do you remember?
Cheryl Donaldson [02:42]
It’s like Samuel.
Steve Fretzin [02:43]
Yeah,
Cheryl Donaldson [02:44]
Samuel something.
Steve Fretzin [02:45]
Something wrong. Can’t remember. All right, somebody write into the show. Let us know.
Cheryl Donaldson [02:48]
That’s right.
Steve Fretzin [02:49]
If it pops into my head, I’ll let you guys know. All right, but here we go. This is this guy’s Mark Twain. So brilliant. Here we go. Here’s the quote of the show. 20 years from now, you’ll be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bow lines, sail away from the safe harbor, catch the trade winds in your sails, explore, dream, discover. All right, Cheryl, welcome to the show, and tell us why you love that quote.
Cheryl Donaldson [03:11]
Well, okay, I love it that his name has a sailing reference, and then yeah, so then there you go. That’s part of the whole thing. For me, I love that quote because when I was five years old, my parents bought a camper in Europe, and we camped for six weeks. And that was sort of my first sort of vacation experience. All these different countries, and we camped. It’s not like we stayed in hotels. And so, from the time I was really early, I traveled. I I experienced. I took risks. I went out, and our boys are the same way. My husband and I have three boys. And last summer, my son had the opportunity to kind of figure out what to do for the summer after his first year of law school. He has the opportunity to go to Uganda and work with the Supreme Court there and do some public defense work. And so he’s like, “Yeah, I think I’ll do that and not not go to a law firm, and I think that those experiences change us, and they make us different people. We we have depth to us, we have layers to us, and so for me, I just think that quote just represents how we can live life in a way that’s exciting and fun, and yeah. So yeah, that’s why I love
Steve Fretzin [04:18]
- Yeah, regrets terrible, and I I know that there’s chances I could have or should have taken in my life. Well, if I’m being honest, primarily being very shy as a teenager and not asking the girl, the girl I wanted to go to the dance or something.
Cheryl Donaldson [04:31]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [04:32]
but you know, ultimately, I you know it took it took like a for me a life changing experience, and in this case, it was a plane crash in ’96.
Cheryl Donaldson [04:39]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [04:39]
where I just decided that I wasn’t gonna let like let life have me. That I was gonna have life, and I think then there was no regret. Since that time, I’ve always done what I wanted to do the way I wanted to do it. But I think there’s a lot of lawyers that probably sit in that regret and sit in that in that that place of of lack of motion and just sort of letting the normal be. Their life. That’s what we want to work on and fix today. But let’s take a step back before we go there, and let’s talk about you, everybody. Cheryl Donaldson is the founder of Lead from the Soul, which, by the way, I love that name. That’s incredible.
Cheryl Donaldson [05:11]
Thanks.
Steve Fretzin [05:12]
Now, was that you? Did you come up with that, or did you? I did. You did. I
Cheryl Donaldson [05:15]
did. I did. I did. I know. I love the idea of. You know, we talk a lot in psychology about self, and I think soul is a deeper place that we can access. And living soulfully and living from your soul is a very sort of deep and grounding place. So that I kind of came up with that when I was doing some writing, and I just yeah, it just it stuck. So
Steve Fretzin [05:39]
well, it’s sticking with me. I’ll tell you that
Cheryl Donaldson [05:41]
good.
Steve Fretzin [05:41]
But give us your background, how you came to be and and running this business now.
Cheryl Donaldson [05:45]
Yeah, yeah. So I was living when I graduated from college. I was a, I thought so. I grew up in D.C. and I went to University of South Carolina, and I thought I would do something international. I thought I would work for like World Bank or doing some. My undergraduate degree was government international studies. Moved abroad. I was living in Vienna, Austria, and I was working for an organization called Young Life that works for with high school students and different things in the international schools. And I just really kind of fell in love with the idea of making a difference in the lives of kids and really working with these, especially young girls. I would say. So I knew I had to get a master’s. I knew I had to go back and get a master’s if I really wanted to do that. So I came back to Chicago, got my master’s in clinical psychology, and started my started. Gosh, I was like 29, I think, and I started working in the field of psychology. That’s taken me a lot of different places, moving and starting different businesses, but now that I’m in Charleston, what I have always had a clinical practice, but I’ve always worked with an organization, schools, doing leadership development, and so now that I’m here and kind of our boys are gone, I decided to really expand that internationally and and do a lot more consulting. So I do half clinical work and then half consulting leadership development.
Steve Fretzin [07:03]
Yeah, awesome, really, really good. And I think there’s, you know, look at how many how many young folks have you raised?
Cheryl Donaldson [07:11]
Three, three boys.
Steve Fretzin [07:12]
Okay, yeah, three boys. And what are their ages?
Cheryl Donaldson [07:14]
2826 24
Steve Fretzin [07:16]
Okay, so you’re ahead of me. I’ve got a 19 year old back from college.
Cheryl Donaldson [07:20]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [07:20]
this is a kid that you know. I wrote an article called “That Angsty Teenager. Don’t like as a lawyer. Don’t be an angsty teenager.
Cheryl Donaldson [07:27]
Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [07:27]
And this is a kid who you know lost 50 pounds. He got straight A’s.
Cheryl Donaldson [07:33]
Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [07:33]
And he’s been home, and it’s been absolutely delightful. He’s cooking for himself every night, eating really well.
Cheryl Donaldson [07:38]
Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [07:39]
And I knew what was going to happen? I just didn’t know when.
Cheryl Donaldson [07:42]
Yeah, exactly. How is it? How is
Steve Fretzin [07:43]
it raising for you raising three boys and seeing that transformation? Because I I hope people that have teenagers recognize that if you do good things as a parent and you’re just patient, that they are listening and that they are paying attention, just not in the moment when you’re talking to them.
Cheryl Donaldson [08:00]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [08:00]
in some instances, what what’s your experience there?
Cheryl Donaldson [08:03]
You know, I think for me, with raising kids in particular, it’s really training. A lot of times, I have parents that will come into me and say, like, I tried this one thing, and and my child didn’t listen listen to me, and I’m like, okay, but did you say it 500 million times? That’s really what you need. You know what I mean? That’s really what the count is. You know what I mean?
Steve Fretzin [08:20]
Yeah.
Cheryl Donaldson [08:20]
So, but you-it’s really training, and so as you’re talking to them about independence, they’re not going to listen to you. They’re not going to come back and be like, “Oh, mom, that was so helpful. Thank you so much. I’m going to do that. Incredible, incredible. Oh my gosh, thank you, thank you for that. I’m going to straight away do that. You know what I mean?
Steve Fretzin [08:36]
Yeah.
Cheryl Donaldson [08:36]
So, but you’re training them. You’re giving them feedback. They’re always listening. They’re never going to tell you they’re listening, but they’re usually listening.
Steve Fretzin [08:44]
Yeah,
Cheryl Donaldson [08:45]
sometimes not. But you know, but you say it enough. It just they absorb it, and they really absorb how you how you live your life and what you’re doing, the choices you’re making, and your relationships and how you’re modeling that to them. And then eventually they come back, and all of a sudden they start doing the dishes, and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this is fantastic!
Steve Fretzin [09:04]
I think listening, yes, behind the scenes, but I think also watching your behavior, right? So if you’re kind to, you know, a server at a restaurant, or you’re friendly to neighbors, or they see that you’re generous in the way that you are with your friends, I think they want to emulate that. They see that, and they they don’t do it right away,
Cheryl Donaldson [09:25]
yeah.
Steve Fretzin [09:25]
Because they have they have that the frontal lobe not fully formed, and there’s a selfishness, yeah. And I think that selfishness can start to fade away as they get more mature, and then they start to emulate things that they see in in a good parent.
Cheryl Donaldson [09:37]
Absolutely. I mean, it it feels better to be eating good food and to be kind to people and to be and that’s the motivator. Like it feels good to have these good things in our lives, and so eventually that makes sense. And as a parent, you can continually sort of manage that or give them feedback on that, but ultimately they’ll get it because it’s the thing that feels that feels better. It doesn’t. Good, not to be nice. I mean, it just doesn’t, you know. And eventually, they get that.
Steve Fretzin [10:04]
Yeah,
Cheryl Donaldson [10:04]
yeah.
Steve Fretzin [10:05]
And I saw that you had spoken at the Duke Law School graduating class, and I’d love to hear more about that and how you’re kind of seeing. Since we’re talking about the up and comers, yeah, like how you’re seeing this next generation coming up, because you know, as a Gen X, and you know, hearing from my Gen X managing partner clients and whatnot, there’s there’s a lot of concern. There were concerns about millennials. There were concerns about Z’s. There’s concerns about this generation. So give us a little flavor about speaking there, and then then what you’re seeing coming up.
Cheryl Donaldson [10:33]
Yeah. So I went to do. It wasn’t the graduating class. It was the law school. So I yeah. So yeah yeah. So it was the women’s group that brought me in, but it was a mix. It was a whole mix of of folks. And what I they what I loved about speaking, and I really talked about how do we how do we live, and what does it look like for high performers to then enter into this world of big law, and then and they had so many questions about you know what’s that going to look like for me? Here’s my concerns. Here’s my worries. And they they were so thoughtful about what they wanted for themselves, what they were concerned about, how they were going to engage with others. You know, we talked a lot about what you needed to kind of do in your 20s and what that means for them, especially as high performers. And so, what really struck me is how thoughtful they were, how engaged they were, and how committed they were to living well. I think, and I think that that’s. I feel like the Gen X crew gets a little bit of a bad rap because there’s sort of this, and I think it’s a mixed bag. As a psychologist, I don’t like to say like, “Oh, Gen X is this, or “Monet or this, you know what I mean, because they’re all different. I mean, they’re all really, really different. But the high-performing Gen X, which is going to be the lawyers, the thing, the high, are really thoughtful about how they’re living, you know, and what they want and what they need and how they’re going to communicate that. And I love that about them. I think also, I think what might be hard for law firms is that they’re going to be confident to leave if they’re not getting what they need or what they want. They’re going to be mobile. Like they’re going to be okay. Well, this isn’t working for me. I’m going to go over here, and so that can I think for law firms to pay attention to that to say this is a generation of folks that will leave. They have the confidence to leave, and it’s not like a generation before, maybe you don’t leave. You know, they they would say, “Okay, this isn’t working for me, and I’m going to try this over here, or or whatever. And I think that that’s both a great strength. But for law firms, adjusting to that, I think is really important.
Steve Fretzin [12:32]
Well, it can also be challenging because they may find that there’s a lot of places that say the right things and get them in the door, and they’re not gonna be caring about their feelings, like you know. That’s the thing. I’m on an assembly line, and I’m making widgets, and I have feelings. Does my boss care about my feelings? Not really. So there’s a kind of a mix of this is the job, these are the billable hours, this is what you agreed to do your job, and then there’s this other thing where you know I want you to be happy and I want you to be in a good culture and I want you to be successful.
Cheryl Donaldson [13:05]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [13:06]
you know how do you know what you’re going to get? You know I think you know maybe they need to be really cognizant of you know understanding culture and people and and maybe asking a lot more questions before they move into a situation.
Cheryl Donaldson [13:18]
Yeah, no, agreed. I think what keeps especially this this new generation of lawyers. What’s going to keep them is people investing in them, like mentoring them and doing stuff. And a lot of times, what I really talk about is they’re taking the initiative to do that. So I was talking to a bunch of different associates, and they’re like, “Yeah, no, I make an intentional effort to find a mentor and spend time, and someone that will spend time with me, and I think that that’s law firms understanding that the sense of why that’s really important, and really deciding, okay, I’m going to keep this talent, which they want, you know, if they have people in some way, shape, or form investing in them and making it just being intentional about valuing them in some way doesn’t take a lot. It’s like a micro adjustment, but you know, I remember. So my dad, so my dad’s a lawyer, my husband’s a lawyer, my son’s a lawyer, my brother’s a lawyer. So I’m I’m in this world, like yeah. And so, but I do, you know, I remember my dad. He always had somebody that he mentored, and I I just remember him talking about it at home. I remember him coming to our house for the weekend. We had like a summer home, and he would bring him out. And I always just remember that that was really important to him, and it was important to him because that’s kind of how he lived his life. But also, it was important because he would find that talent that was really good, and then invest in them. And they were loyal to him, and they would do his work. And you know, he really chose that, so it was a two-way street. And so, when you don’t do that, you’re really missing on being purposeful about your work because when you’re invested in others, it’s purposeful. But then also, you’re missing finding those people that will be really loyal to you.
Steve Fretzin [14:54]
Well, the thing that’s interesting about what you’re saying is, you know, there’s so many differences between, and I’m just going to use Gen X. Z, for example, and then you say like they’re looking for mentorship. Like I don’t know a Gen X lawyer that was super successful without a mentor, right? That didn’t have somebody that they could name as the individual or two individuals that helped me learn this or help me get there here, right? And so I think even though we see all these different changes, like you know the like you know my father’s generation, your father’s generation might have been you know that stupid rock and roll music. It’s crap, right? Yeah, and now I listen to the kids’ music and I go, that’s crap, and I’m like, great. Now I’m my father, so we’re just like history repeating, yeah, you know, and yeah,
Cheryl Donaldson [15:37]
exactly. Where is it
Steve Fretzin [15:38]
going to go?
Cheryl Donaldson [15:38]
Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [15:41]
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Cheryl Donaldson [17:33]
yeah I mean there’s so much movement that’s going on within the legal profession that I think it’s it’s uncomfortable I would say that I think the I’ll speak to that on two levels. I think it’s really important for young lawyers to really understand, or anybody really in corporate world, that the quality of flexibility and resilience is key. To always be looking and saying, how do I assess my value, and how do I assess what I’m giving back, and how do I assess where the where the field is going and how I fit in and how can I be flexible to figure that out? If you don’t do that, if you’re just kind of putting your head down and doing your work, it’s you’re going to get in trouble because things are going to pass you by. Like you always have to be thinking about where you’re going, what you’re doing,
Steve Fretzin [18:17]
yeah, who to connect
Cheryl Donaldson [18:18]
with, who to talk to, how to create that resilience of flexibility? I mean, if if you don’t have that, it’s going to be really tough. So there’s always going to be something. There’s going to be AI. There’s going to be cutbacks. There’s going to be recessions. I mean, there’s always going to be something. And so to develop that quality of asking questions, being curious, asking people how they’ve done it before, and then really thinking, okay, what do I have to give, and how do I how do I manage this?
Steve Fretzin [18:44]
Yeah, well, it might be a plug for not for me directly, but for the concept of developing a network, of developing relationships that can help you move to another firm, that can help you be successful internally, that can help you bring in business if that becomes something that you know, hey, I’m a third year, I’ve learned the law, I’m pretty damn good.
Cheryl Donaldson [19:07]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [19:08]
this is untenable. I have to now go out on my own or find a job. But I’m bringing you know two dozen, three dozen strong relationships with me where I’m going to get off on the right foot and build my own thing. Now that I’ve learned from these great mentors, okay, and they’re cutting jobs anyway. So,
Cheryl Donaldson [19:24]
yeah,
Steve Fretzin [19:24]
I think lawyers, to your point, need to look ahead. They need to think about what’s going on around them, and you know, even if it’s emulating someone, a mentor, someone that you see at the firm that’s kind of getting it right and going in and taking them to lunch and asking, “What are you doing? That you’re doing a lot of things right from my perspective, I want to learn from you on that. It may not be about the law,
Cheryl Donaldson [19:45]
exactly. I mean that that’s such an important piece of it. I think too. I think that you know. I think going in and really understanding what’s my skill set, like what can I develop more of, and how can I be how. I figure out what I’m good at. I mean, I think I think something about your 20s that’s really important is that if you’re a high performer, you’ve performed from you know elementary school on. You know what I mean? Like you’ve performed, and then you’ve gotten to these honors classes, and then whatever, and then college, and then whatever. So there’s always been a structure around you, and in your 20s, it’s really important to figure out how do I want to engage with the structure. So this structure says, especially in big law, you have to do all these hours. You’ve got to decide what that is for you and how you’re going to respond to that and how you’re going to manage your life around that. And that’s a new skill for 20 somethings because normally it’s been decided for you. You know what I mean, and you’ve been performing for it, and now you’re saying, okay, I’m in this structure that’s really sometimes untenable, but sometimes tenable. If you can figure it out, like if you can figure out, hey, I really want to figure out what I’m going to do with my phone for dinner if I go out to dinner. How am I going to answer it? How am I going to respond? How am I going to sort of create boundaries for myself, and that’s uncomfortable at times, but really, really important, especially for that agent to be able to manage that and to stay long term. Like, what do I need? How do I get what I want? How do I begin to play around with saying no or not, or boundaries or whatever that is?
Steve Fretzin [21:18]
Well, that might be the lead into you know why it’s so important to have to work with good people and be in a good firm culture. Because if the firm culture is, you know, like I’m the you know the rich white guy at the top, and I’m just telling everybody to do do whatever and be at my beck and call. And every client, you need to be at their beck and call. You don’t have a weekend. You don’t have an evening. You’re just the lap dog for this thing. How long can that go on before you know you start to realize this is not something I can stomach anymore?
Cheryl Donaldson [21:46]
Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [21:46]
So let’s flip the switch, and we’ve been talking about young lawyers, but let’s talk about the the firms and the managing partners and the folks that are struggling to retain them.
Cheryl Donaldson [21:56]
Yeah.
Steve Fretzin [21:56]
And how I mean, I know most of the firms that I’m working with, the managing partners, they’re looking for talent like that. Doesn’t like they’re short people right now. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [22:05]
like I think the the unemployment for interested lawyers in working is like zero. Yeah.
Narrator [22:09]
So yeah,
Steve Fretzin [22:10]
yeah. So talk to what firms should be thinking about and doing with these young folks to keep them engaged and happy and working and staying put.
Cheryl Donaldson [22:18]
Yeah, you know, I think lawyers are not naturally relational folks. You know what I mean. They’re just not naturally. That’s not their first skill set. So it’s like, okay, can we give them gym memberships? Can we do? Can we provide for them? But they’re not necessarily connecting with them in deep ways. And so I think, and I think the key piece too, and I find this in families as well. It’s really, it’s really across the board. The technology, the introduction of technology into all of this, has created a sense of disconnect that has not been then replaced. So you know, I talk with my families. They’ll say, “I’m really disconnected to my kid, but it’s not that they’re so disconnected. It’s that when they’re in the car, it used to be that you you weren’t on your phone. You had to talk to your kid or listen to the same music or do something, right? So now you’re in the car and the kid’s on the phone, and you’re disconnected in some way. So on some level, you have to replace that disconnection with more connection. It’s not like hey, we can’t have our phone, or I’m going to take your phone, or we’re going to. Some of that is important, but just having structure. But you need to replace that disconnection with connection. Same with law firms. That there’s so much disconnection that’s happening. We’re emailing, we’re texting. If we have a meeting, we’re doing teams on different floors. When you could just walk down, and there is a different connection when you see someone in person or you look them in the eyes than when you’re on Teams or any other way, and it’s really important to think about if I’m not naturally a relational person, how am I making those connections? How am I being intentional about those connections? Because it’s naturally not set up anymore for connection. You’re not all sitting in a conference room, kibitzing beforehand, and then figuring out how to do it. You’re all doing it on Teams, and you’re at home, and people are all over the place, and you know. So the the important piece of that is connecting, not just providing, but connecting and creating that connection. Yeah. Otherwise, people just will leave. They just feel like they’re part of an assembly, and that, and they’ll leave.
Steve Fretzin [24:21]
Give a couple of of action of examples or actions that that someone that is trying to make a connection with a younger lawyer, things that they could do. Is that a is that a lunch? I mean, is that a yeah a kind of reoccurring meeting? Like, what what are some things that you that you recommend?
Cheryl Donaldson [24:36]
Yeah, so I was talking to an associate, and he there was a lawyer that had them work all weekend and do some things. Then whatever happened, it fell through, and they it didn’t work, whatever. And everybody kind of gave their weekend, and so he’s like, “Hey, I want to take everybody out to lunch. And so they all went out to lunch. He didn’t have to necessarily, but he was like, “Hey, I want to take you out to lunch. I want to take you to my club. So it wasn’t even like, “Hey, I’m going to pay for lunch for you, you know. It’s. I’m going to take you out to lunch, and we’re all going to sit and kibitz about whatever. Those little micro adjustments that you can make, and taking the time to do that. I mean, there’s an element of everybody’s making a lot of money. You know what I mean? There’s a lot of money out there, and at some point, you’ve got to say, okay, I got to give back relationally, or I’m not going to be able to make more money, or people are just going to leave, and it’s it’s going to cost me money. So everybody’s like, oh, we have to, you know, we have to make billable hours and build it. But at at some point, you have to say, okay, I’ve got to give back and invest back in these micro areas, you know, or even just saying thank you or walking by somebody’s office and being intentional. Those are small adjustments that are really key.
Steve Fretzin [25:42]
It’s like stepping over dollars to pick up dimes because that’s
Cheryl Donaldson [25:45]
right. Yeah, the the the
Steve Fretzin [25:45]
cost of replacing. So you’ve had an associate at your firm for two years. They’re doing ever all the work that you don’t want to do, right? Yeah. The stuff you’re doing the high strategy. They’re doing all the grunt work, and they’re learning and they’re getting better. And to lose someone like that and have to replace them with the the gap that exists or the training that needs to exist and the ramp up speed. I mean, we we could be looking at you know 234, $500,000
Cheryl Donaldson [26:10]
Yep,
Steve Fretzin [26:10]
because we didn’t spend what you know $1,000 on taking some folks to lunch, you know whatever. So I think I think that’s a really important point that you’re making.
Cheryl Donaldson [26:19]
One
Steve Fretzin [26:19]
other question I have for you: just another point that maybe helps people attract the talent. There’s retaining the talent, but how should law firms be thinking about attracting the talent?
Cheryl Donaldson [26:30]
You know, I think so. It depends. I mean, you know, you’ve got summer associates, obviously, and they they do a great job. Like it’s you know, all these activities, all these things. They’re flying them all these places, you know, and and that’s great. And they do a really really great job at that. After that, it’s not as great, you know what I mean? Like they’re trying to attract the talent. I think that I think that leadership needs to think about how do we develop, what do we want to say to them, how do we do that, and how do we follow through on that? Because you’re gonna, there’s gonna be a. I mean, lawyers will talk, and I think that you need to develop what’s our strategy. What does that look like? And are we following through on that? Is that just lip service? Because it’ll get out if it’s just lip service. But if you really want to attract talent, it’s really just about creating a culture that you feel like you can thrive under, and that’s going to be connection for sure. That’s going to be some mentorship. That’s going to be a sense of really. So many people talked about having the lawyers understand that they have families. For the women, it’s really important to for them to say, okay, are there other women that I can talk to, and are they making it? Because to attract women lawyers, those women lawyers are going to immediately reach out to the other women lawyers. That thing and say, “How is this? Are you able to? Is this sustainable? They do a great job at that. You know, to be able to talk and and I find with women attorneys, they tend to really invest in other women, and that’s a it’s a really nice connection. Not always everybody else; it’s just less known. But that sort of group really reaches out and really tries to develop that for one another, but it’s really about how can we make your life sustainable? Because otherwise, it’s just an assembly line. You’re going to have people come in and go.
Steve Fretzin [28:12]
Yeah, people want to feel like they’re people and human, and they want to see the. And you know, having a culture that has you know somewhat of an open comp system has an understanding of how you grow, how you build, what your future looks like. I think when people don’t know and have that transparency, um, it becomes like a shield, and they’re just like, okay, I don’t know. And I wrote an article for Above the Law about you know lawyers that are interested in making equity and what does it take to make equity, and most of them just don’t know, and that’s a problem, right? So it’s we need to you know we need to be have these these cultures that demonstrate you know this is a home and this is where you want to this is where you want to be
Cheryl Donaldson [28:48]
yeah
Steve Fretzin [28:48]
but that can’t happen if if everybody’s sneaking around
Cheryl Donaldson [28:51]
that’s
Steve Fretzin [28:51]
right all I think
Cheryl Donaldson [28:52]
let me throw something out I think too I think in terms of a really healthy organization that they need three things they need connection they need structure and they need expectation. So connection is like the idea of how we’re how we’re connecting with one another. Structure is this is how we’re going to engage with one another. This is what we’re going to do after hours. This is how we’re going to value your time. This is how this is kind of our culture. How we’re going to set up an expectation is here’s how you can get from here to there, and here’s here’s how we’re going to do it. Here’s how we’re going to give you feedback about that. Here’s how we’re going to help you understand if you want if you have these goals. Is here’s how we’re going to help you get there. But if someone comes in and it’s not clear how we’re going to connect with one another, what that looks like, what the structure is of the organization, and then how we’re going to have expectation for one another? It’s it’s going to be, it’s just too loose. Like there there needs to be all three of those things, and it needs to be all. If we’re going to give people feedback about how they’re doing, we need to be connected to them. We can’t be disconnected to them and then give them like harsh feedback because then they’ll be like, yeah, I don’t want to stay here. That this isn’t good. But that connection, you can actually give stronger feedback, and that person is more motivated to do that in a different way.
Steve Fretzin [30:07]
Yeah, absolutely fantastic. Thank you, Cheryl. Final question: What’s Cheryl’s big mistake?
Cheryl Donaldson [30:12]
My big mistake. You know, I think my biggest mistake is that I kind of went into my career thinking it was going to be very linear, and I thought it was going to be. I was going to do this, and then I was going to do this. I was going to do this, and it’s so not linear. And kind of embracing the non-linear and being open to that, it kind of circles back to the Mark Twain quote. It’s like you know, be open when different things come around. For me, I had a clinical practice, and all of a sudden, my family and I moved to Europe for five years, so I was like, I couldn’t practice there, and so all of a sudden I just thought, oh my gosh, how am I going to be able to start practicing? What does that look like? I have to get my license back up and running, and it all came together, and I was able to learn so many different other skills to get that. So I think that mistake of not being open or being stressed when it wasn’t going exactly what I thought was probably my my biggest misconception, I would say. Okay,
Steve Fretzin [31:04]
all right. Well, change the question. Biggest misconception. Yeah,
Cheryl Donaldson [31:07]
yeah, yeah. Thanks for
Steve Fretzin [31:08]
changing my show up. That’s right.
Cheryl Donaldson [31:09]
That’s right. All right.
Steve Fretzin [31:11]
I’m being flexible too, right? Just like every relationship.
Cheryl Donaldson [31:14]
Exactly.
Steve Fretzin [31:15]
Fantastic. Let’s take a moment. Thank our incredible sponsors. Of course, Lex Reception. Don’t pick up your phone. Let have somebody professional do it. Make sure you get that call scheduled and set up to meet. Of course, lawyer.com. great directory, and PimCon coming up. The number one PI conference in the world happening in Scottsdale. Check that out. And show people want to get in touch with you. They want to learn more about your business and practice, and and get that lead from the soul vibe. What what are the best ways for them to reach you?
Cheryl Donaldson [31:45]
So my website is cheryldalsonleads.com So that’s the best way to get in touch with me. There’s a way to get in touch with me on Instagram Cheryl Donaldson LMFT, and then just on LinkedIn Cheryl Donaldson.
Steve Fretzin [31:58]
Yeah, and we’ll put all that in the show notes.
Cheryl Donaldson [32:00]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [32:00]
so fantastic having you. I think I’m getting your husband soon too. Is he going to? I know
Cheryl Donaldson [32:04]
you are. Yes, yes, yes, yes. You will get him too. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [32:08]
that’s very exciting. Top recruiter and really has his finger on the pulse of what’s going on in legal, just like you seem to. So you guys must be talking, talking at the dinner table.
Cheryl Donaldson [32:16]
Talking on. That’s right. We’re connecting. We’re connecting. We’re trying to connect. You’re connecting, right? You’re practicing what you preach. Outstanding, outstanding. Well,
Steve Fretzin [32:24]
thank you so much. I’m so thrilled that we got to meet, and shout out to Mave who made the intro. And let’s keep in the loop. I’ve got some ideas about how we can collaborate beyond today. So thanks so much.
Cheryl Donaldson [32:35]
Great, thank you.
Steve Fretzin [32:36]
And thank you everybody for hanging out with with me and Cheryl for 30 and change today. Having a great time trying to help the young, not only the younger lawyers, but also the folks that are managing them. That it’s a two-way street here, and I think we uncovered a lot of different things that are different, and also some similarities. So take that into account. This show all about helping you build your book, build your future, grow your future, and be that lawyer. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Be safe and well. We will talk again soon.
Narrator [33:07]
Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.
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