Chaka Patterson: How Outside Counsel Can Win (and Keep) In‑House Clients

When in-house counsel are “hair on fire” busy and severely resource constrained, why should they choose you as outside counsel? In this episode, you’ll hear a former GC and big‑law partner break down exactly how to become the trusted, go‑to lawyer that general counsel actually want to hire and introduce to their peers.

In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chaka Patterson discuss:

• Adaptability and rainmaking in a changing legal market
• The real day-to-day life of in-house counsel
• What GCs value most in outside counsel relationships
• Using investment banker and consultant strategies for BD
• Deepening and expanding relationships inside client organizations

Key Takeaways:

• Long-term success in private practice is less about raw legal talent and more about adaptability, relationship depth, and how well you understand your clients’ business realities.
• In-house counsel are often overwhelmed and resource-constrained, so outside lawyers who proactively leverage their firm’s tools, people, and knowledge to lighten that load stand out quickly.
• Treating in-house lawyers as whole people—with careers, families, and aspirations—rather than as “a piece of business” is a major differentiator and often the true reason work moves firms.
• The best rainmakers think like investment bankers and management consultants: they invest early in relationships, arrive with insight (not “What’s keeping you up at night?”), and burrow into organizations so they’re never reliant on a single contact.
• Asking satisfied clients for warm introductions—and systematizing how those introductions are made and followed up—turns existing matters into a steady pipeline of new in-house relationships.

“Anytime you can help somebody solve a problem of any kind, you have delivered real value.” —  Chaka Patterson

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About Chaka Patterson: Chaka Patterson is an experienced attorney and business strategist with over three decades of leadership spanning private practice, public service, and corporate executive roles. Highly educated with degrees from Amherst College, Harvard Law School, and the University of Chicago (M.B.A.), he has served as a partner at leading law firms and held key executive roles, including General Counsel at Adtalem Global Education and Vice President of Treasury and Investor Relations at Exelon Corporation. Today, he leverages this deep expertise in law, finance, and corporate governance through Chaka Strategy, where he coaches and advises legal professionals navigating complex career and business transformations.

Connect with Chaka Patterson:

Website: https://chakastrategy.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaka-patterson/

Connect with Steve Fretzin:

LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin

Twitter: @stevefretzin

Instagram: @fretzinsteve

Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.

Website: Fretzin.com

Email: Steve@Fretzin.com

Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!

YouTube: Steve Fretzin

Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911

Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Steve Fretzin  [00:00]

Hey everybody! Before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at be that lawyer.com/community And other than that, please enjoy the show.

 

Narrator  [00:29]

You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Brettson will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

 

Steve Fretzin  [00:51]

Hey, everybody! Steve Fretzen here, and welcome, welcome, welcome to be that lawyer. I have a new tagline. I always say on the show: confident, organized, and a skilled rainmaker. And I just moved it to build your book, own your future. What do you think about that?

 

Chaka Patterson  [01:05]

Yeah, I think that that’s exactly right. When you are a particularly when you are a partner at a big law firm, M Law 50, M Law 100 you know, if you have the bigger your book, the more control over your future you have.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:18]

Yeah, well, but I’m saying as a tagline for me. What do you think of it?

 

Chaka Patterson  [01:22]

Oh, oh, what was it? Built it was build

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:24]

your book, own your future.

 

Chaka Patterson  [01:26]

Yes, that’s exactly right.

 

Steve Fretzin  [01:28]

All right, I’d like everybody else that’s listening right now to email me and tell me what you think. You get to choose. No, it’s choose your own adventure time on be that lawyer. Well, anyway, I appreciate you being her, Chaka, and we’re gonna jump in. We’ve got your quote, and I’m a big Darwin guy. I like Darwin. I like you know survival of fittest and all that. But in this case, it’s a little bit of a different quote from him, and it goes something like this: It’s not the strongest species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change. So welcome to the show, and tell us why you love that quote.

 

Chaka Patterson  [02:01]

Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate being here. So I love that quote because I think adaptability is essential, particularly if you want to be a big rainmaker, either in your own firm or or at a big law firm. You know, things are constantly changing, particularly with clients’ regulations, you know, like as we’re seeing now, for example, you know, white collar lawyers are having to pivot and figure out, you know, different ways to rain make, and so you know, adaptability and rainmaking, I think, go hand in hand.

 

Steve Fretzin  [02:37]

Yeah, well, I I like it because it it’s really being specific about you’re not. It’s not the strongest or the most intelligent. We have lots of lawyers that are intelligent. We have lots of lawyers that are you know powerful, but if they’re not adapting, if they’re not seeing what’s happening in AI, if they’re not seeing what’s happening with you know private equity and how the world is sort of changing, the legal world is sort of changing. I think it’s possible they’re going to get maybe they already have been gobbled up or you know messed around a little bit in their in their their kind of little world that they’re living in. So that’s kind of how I see it. You know that that change is really you got to kind of be ahead of

 

Chaka Patterson  [03:12]

1. Yeah, agreed.

 

Steve Fretzin  [03:13]

Yeah. Well, everybody, Chaka Patterson is here with us today. Years and years of in house. Now the CEO and founder of Chaka Strategy. So give us a little background how you came to be.

 

Chaka Patterson  [03:24]

Yeah, so Amherst College, Harvard Law, MBA from University of Chicago. My career has largely fallen into three buckets. I have been a partner at Jenner and Block, Alston & Bird, Jones Day. I have been in house twice at Exelon Corporation in Chicago, where I started out as head of litigation, and then eventually became treasurer and head of investor relations, and Adtalem Global Education, also in Chicago, where I started out as head of litigation and ended up as general counsel, and then I’ve also been a government prosecutor twice, been chief of special litigation in the Illinois Attorney General’s office, and chief of the civil division in our local district attorney’s office, and so I’ve basically just taken all of that experience and created Chaka Strategy, helping in-house lawyers and outside counsel take their legal expertise and turn it into business impact.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:23]

Yeah, and is that leadership? Is it operations? Is it marketing? Sales? Like, what’s the general theme of how you would work with an in-house lawyer, for example?

 

Chaka Patterson  [04:32]

Yeah. So generally speaking, I help in-house lawyers think about how to find and provide value to their in-house clients.

 

Steve Fretzin  [04:44]

Okay, got it, got it, got it. And so let’s dive into it because I wanna, I wanna really tackle at least starting out some thoughts about the life of the in-house counsel because a lot of the folks listening right now, they’re they would love to get in front of in-house counsel. That those are the people that that can send them the work, and you know. So, what’s sort of like you know the day to day of an in house counsel, and and what are they you know are they being hit up every day for you know by lawyers? Are they you know are they kind of insulated? Like what’s that like? What’s the life like?

 

Chaka Patterson  [05:16]

Yeah. So at the end of the day, the in house life is primarily just cranking, right? Just you know, just getting the work out the door, fielding a lot of calls from your business clients, and really trying to help them solve business problems. Yeah, and you know, you go outside for you know help with with doing that, just depending on you know, it could be a bandwidth issue, it could be an expertise issue.

 

Steve Fretzin  [05:45]

Yeah. Okay. So I had a friend that was in house for many years, and he said something to me about like sometimes he he like wouldn’t go to the bathroom all day, and I was like, what? Because he was that busy. I was like, I didn’t realize in house was like that hair on fire busy. I always thought of it as sort of the more cush job that nine to five that some lawyers aspire to, so they don’t have to do business development. Right, exactly. How do I get away from this thing that I never wanted to do that’s now being pushed upon me?

 

Chaka Patterson  [06:14]

Right. Yeah. No, that is a common myth. Now, look, there may be some companies that are organized that way. That was certainly not my experience at at Exelon or at Talum. It was more hair on fire, largely because unlike actually unlike outside counsel, in house counsel, you never know what’s coming, what crisis just happened, what contract needs to be reviewed and closed right away. Yeah, it’s almost inevitable that whatever plan you have for the day gets disrupted by a significant business emergency.

 

Steve Fretzin  [06:50]

Yeah, and then what are in-house counsels looking for? What are maybe attributes of a lawyer they would want to work with? Let’s say that they’re unhappy with their current counsel, deadlines are being missed. They’re not really getting stuff off their desk as they had planned, and they’re maybe open-minded to talking with a lawyer. What are those the attributes they’d be looking for?

 

Chaka Patterson  [07:11]

Yeah, and I do want to clarify one thing: is you know a lot of times people want to make a switch not because the lawyers are doing a bad job, but they simply just don’t like them. They just don’t want to, you know, they don’t want to work with them. And so the number one thing is: Do I like this person? Do I like working with this person? Do I believe this person has my interests at heart? You know, I think a lot of times outside counsel see in-house counsel as business and not as people, but you know in-house counsel obviously are people. They have goals, they have aspirations, they have dreams, they have families, they have you know life happens right. They have life lifing on them, and so I think the most effective outside counsel are the ones who recognize the humanity of their clients and put a premium on that. So that’s number one. Number two, I think the other thing that outside counsel grossly underestimate is the resource imbalance in house. counsel is severely resource constrained. I don’t care how big the company is, how prominent it is, they’re always resource constrained relative to outside counsel. And so, outside counsel would do themselves a significant favor by leaning into that resource imbalance and helping clients figure things out by leveraging the firm’s resources, resources that in-house counsel often simply don’t have access to. I think the third thing is, you know a big problem with outside counsel, and look, it’s and it’s likely to get worse with rates being where they are. Is you know we try to capture every minute of every day, and that’s just a huge mistake. You know, one of the things I I counsel outside counsel that I work with is I tell them you should think about developing business like an investment banker and growing it like a management consultant. And by that, I mean investment bankers spend a significant amount of time investing in the relationship and investing in the business long before a mandate comes down. So when investment bankers call on you and ask for a meeting, they come in with something substantive to talk about. They know your industry, they know your company. They know how you are positioned relative to tailwinds and headwinds, and they have a specific thing that they want to talk to you about. We, as outside counsel, will often call up clients or potential clients, and we always ask the stupid question, “What’s keeping you up at night?

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:19]

Yeah.

 

Chaka Patterson  [10:19]

So I’m my hair’s on fire. I’m busy as I’ll get out, and you wanted to have lunch or coffee to ask me what’s keeping me up at night.

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:27]

Yeah, yeah, right. Well, it’s like when you meet with a new prospective client, and and you say, so what do you do? Well, like, okay, that’s not a great way to start, right? Like,

 

Narrator  [10:38]

yeah,

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:39]

you should have been. You know, you have AI now. You don’t even have to do the Google search. You just ask a question on and get everything in the world about that person and their business and everything. So

 

Chaka Patterson  [10:48]

exactly,

 

Steve Fretzin  [10:49]

it’s really interesting. So lawyers, the private practice lawyers, I think generally do a pretty terrible job at the preparation and the advancement of trying to get in the door. That’s

 

Chaka Patterson  [11:04]

right.

 

Steve Fretzin  [11:04]

So I know that you you mentioned a couple things. They’re you know that they’re not really prepared properly. How could they be more like an investment banker in in the sense of preparing properly and developing enough headwind or momentum to get in the door to actually work with a new GC at a new company?

 

Chaka Patterson  [11:20]

Yeah. So if it’s a public company, it’s easy, right? Go look at their 10k Go look at any of their other key SEC filings, like their proxy statement. Maybe they issued a an 8k recently. Go listen to the earnings call. Go up to the investor relations tab on the website and take a look at the latest investment meet, investor meeting that the company had. That all of that will tell you plenty about the company’s goals, where the company is trying to get to, and what’s keeping them from getting there.

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:00]

Yeah.

 

Chaka Patterson  [12:01]

If it’s a private company, you can look at their public company peers, and then at least go into the meeting trying to ascertain, hey, this is what we see in terms of headwinds and tailwinds in the industry. This is how we see your peers positioned relative to those tailwinds and headwinds. How are you positioned? What kinds of things are keeping you from achieving your goals?

 

Steve Fretzin  [12:30]

But does that information? Let’s say that you have a lot of really good competitive analysis and detailed information. They still have to agree to meet with you. So there’s maybe I don’t want to say a step skip there, but like just emailing them and saying, “Look, we have all this great information. You should meet with us to talk about it. Maybe that’ll work. Maybe it won’t. Or do you need to have a relationship to help like work you and get you through the door?

 

Chaka Patterson  [12:52]

Yeah. So typically speaking, most GCs, deputy GCs, heads of litigation, yeah, don’t respond to to cold calls. So normally, you’re going to need to have some kind of relationship with the company, somebody who can make a warm introduction.

 

Steve Fretzin  [13:13]

Yeah, and it’s why I I continue to you know work with my clients to help them come up with to help share an actual process for how do you go from you know working with a GC at one company who knows maybe a dozen others right and approach them to get them to say yeah you’re the best lawyer I’ve ever had and then would they be open to making some inroads and how they’re going to introduce you and I think that might be as important as anything if they just say hey I work with this attorney. You want to meet that attorney? The other GC might say, “Nah, I’m kind of, I’m good right now, or I’m really busy. But if they, I use an acronym: the Bar before After Results, right? So, you know, before working with this lawyer, you know, things were a disaster. You know, more lawsuits than we ever had. You know, things going to trial that should have been worked out. This guy gets us out of all this stuff, like best lawyer we’ve ever had, results beyond belief. And I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea for you to meet with my lawyer just to get to know him, just in case. I don’t think the GC would turn that down, right?

 

Chaka Patterson  [14:15]

Absolutely. I think that that that is probably, in my experience, the most underutilized way to meet other decision makers, you see, deputies, you see, heads of litigation, etc. is existing clients doing that heavy lifting for you. And again, to go back to investment banks, investment bankers do that all the time. When I was treasurer of Exelon, they always asked me to reach out to a fellow treasurer and give them a really warm introduction in the way you just described.

 

Steve Fretzin  [14:49]

Well, and by the way, if we want to go full circle, Shaka, we can say, look, you said something earlier that they have to really like you and see that they’re that your best interest for them. Are for them, right? That’s right. So if you’re if you’re just doing great work, great. Those are table stakes. That’s right. Or things lawyers should be doing with GCs. And I’m not saying it has to all be wine and dine, right? Be a great lawyer. Be a conciliary. Be you know help them find their next assistant GC. Figure out like what other problems they’re having that aren’t legal, but you can help them solve them through your network, right? Is that stuff that makes a big difference for an house?

 

Chaka Patterson  [15:24]

Huge, huge difference. Yeah, because you know, any time, like any human connection relationship, any time you can help somebody solve a problem of any kind, you have delivered real value. And in my experience, people then look for opportunities to return the the favor and kind, right? So, you know whether it’s something as you know complicated as a legal matter, helping them source their next opportunity, helping them hire somebody, or it could be in their personal lives, right? Their kid wants to, you know, like I, I once had a, you know, was talking to a client. Their kid loved baseball, and they wanted to go, you know. They were like, “Man, I wish I could take my kid to the World Series. It’s like, no problem. When you want to go, which which game you want to go to? I got you. How many tickets you need, right? And so you know they loved me because I made them a hero to their kid.

 

Steve Fretzin  [16:29]

Yeah,

 

Chaka Patterson  [16:30]

right. Yeah, you know. And again, that’s why I say like, you know, probably the two most underutilized resources that outside counsel have. One is what you and I talked about in terms of you know helping resolve legal issues and leveraging you know the network to meet other general counsel, but also just think about the vast resources you have, like World Series tickets, or you know, sitting and talking to a client or potential client, and you know, like one of the things I used to do all the time is that say, “Hey, how are you thinking about your nonprofit activities? Like, what kinds of pro bono things are you doing? What kind of community things are you doing? Oh, you know, I I would love to serve on a board of such and such. Okay, no problem. When you want to, what kind of board?

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:22]

Yeah,

 

Chaka Patterson  [17:23]

yeah. What kind of board? I’ll get you an interview. No problem. Or like, oh, hey, you’re you’re involved in the Red Cross. When’s your next big event? Hey, myself and and four or five associates or whatever gonna come over and we’ll help you guys get you know get the blood drive done. No problem. And so when you lean, you know. So again, just the sheer resources that we have at our disposal as outside counsel to solve problems and add value to in-house counsel. You know, it’s you got to really think about that and put a premium on it.

 

Steve Fretzin  [17:54]

Yeah, but I think what you’re, you know, if we can condense it, there’s business help and there’s personal help, and it doesn’t matter which you do; they’re all help, and you can take the likability, add the help, do great work. Everything comes together. I think there’s a couple things that happen. Number one is that’s a client that’s probably not going to step away from you. Like you’re going to you’ve got that secured. The second thing is the likelihood that they would be open to introducing you to other general counsels goes up exponentially.

 

Chaka Patterson  [18:24]

That’s right.

 

Steve Fretzin  [18:25]

The problem in the rub is that lawyers don’t realize that they have the golden goose. They’ve put in the hours. They’ve done the great work. They’ve done the, and they just they think that GC is gonna send them another GC to work with. In some instances, it’s like, oh, I thought you were busy and that you wouldn’t want more work, and the person’s like, oh my god, and then the other one could be, I just didn’t know you were looking for that. Like, I didn’t know that was something you were even interested in. And you know, but I’ve been working with you 10 years. You know, you don’t say that, but like the idea is like you never made the ask, and I think it’s because lawyers, generally speaking, don’t know how to make the ask in a way that is non-salesy and comfortable, and almost makes it their idea, or can make it, you know, just like this is a win-win. I have, I know the best brain surgeon in town. Your cousin needs brain surgery. Let’s put two and two together. We’re gonna save a life.

 

Chaka Patterson  [19:17]

That’s right. I mean, literally that simple. And like, I don’t think that there’s any GC that honestly looks at it as salesy. You know, it’s like, you know, Steve, you come to me and you’re like, hey, you know, really enjoy working together, whatever you know, whatever our relationship is, and hey, you know, I’m trying to grow my like. I think you can just have honest conversations with people. Hey, I’m trying to grow my book, and you know, if you think I’ve done great work for you and I’ve leaned into you personally and to the the company. Could you make a warm introduction to me to some of the GCs in your network? Almost to a person, they’re going to say absolutely. I think you’re terrific, both as a lawyer and as a human being. I think you’ve added a lot of value to me. I think you can add a lot of value to. The GCs in my network and look, like you said, it’s a win-win. It’s great for me to introduce you to to other general counsel. Right, right. Who’s

 

Steve Fretzin  [20:10]

losing in this situation? It’s a three-way winner. Yeah, three-way. You as the GC feel great knowing you’re giving another GC friend of yours a great lawyer. I’m getting the business. You feel good about like everybody wins in that scenario. I want to put it and throw it a however. The however is if it isn’t done properly, it could also be a three-way loser. So you, as the GC, want to introduce me. You make a terrible introduction, maybe a blind email. Right, Steve meet John. John meets Steve. I now reach out to John 235, 10 times, whatever. No response. Now I got to come back to you saying, “Hey, I’ve reached out to John. He’s now he’s not responding. So who’s feeling good here? You’re not feeling good that I’m like your friend John didn’t do anything. I’m feeling bad. I’m wasting my time. And if I ever do talk to John, he’s going to be like kind of embarrassed that he blew me off because he the email got buried or or whatever excuse he’s going to make. So this is where BD comes in. We need to have a process of how we work a general counsel to agree to make an introduction, who they’re going to introduce us to, how they’re going to make the introduction, when they’re going to make the introduction, what happens if it doesn’t go through? How are we going to follow up with them? So it’s all these like little pieces that need to be put together like a puzzle for this to work the way you want it to work. And every time it does, you go from like 30% chance of it happening to 50 to 70 to 80, you know, and up. And if you just leave it up to yeah, I want to introduce you to anybody, Steve. Oh, good luck. You know, like that’s what they do, right?

 

Chaka Patterson  [21:44]

It’s it’s got to be you’ve got to systematize it and make it easy for the GC to to follow through.

 

Steve Fretzin  [21:51]

Yeah, yeah. Hey, everybody, your next big client might call it 8p.m on a Saturday night. The question is, who’s picking up? With Lex Reception, a real person answers every call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, so you never miss a lead, no matter when they reach out. No AI agents, no voicemail, just professional, legal literate receptionists representing your firm the right way around the clock. And right now, be that lawyer listeners get 250 off their first month. Visit www.lex. www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer to claim your offer. That’s www.lexreception.com/partners/bethatlawyer. Hey everybody, Steve Fretzen here, and at Lawyer.com, they don’t just market law firms; they help them grow. From connecting millions of consumers to trusted lawyers to smarter intake and industry-leading events, they’re building stronger connections across legal visibility, intake, events, growth. That’s Lawyer.com. Check them out today. With proven SEO and digital marketing strategies that drive actual clients to your firm, Rankings.io prides itself on proof, not promises mentality. The best firms hire Rankings.io when they want rankings, traffic, and cases other law firm marketing agencies can’t deliver. Get more rankings, get cases, and schedule a free consultation at Rankings.io today. So. so I think we’re putting this all together. So then, what would you say are the keys to long-term success? Because a lot of GCs, and tell me if I’m wrong, are jumping ship, not in a bad way. Like they’re finding better opportunities, bigger companies, and and I think lawyers don’t realize, like, “Hey, I’ve got 50% of my book wrapped up in this company and my relationships with the GC, and it’s solid, okay? But that’s all. That’s the only person I know, right? So that GC leaves, the new GC comes in, no relationship. Is that? I mean, are you like the risk there is pretty significant? The

 

Chaka Patterson  [23:59]

the risk is very significant, and that’s why I the the outside counsel I work with I tell them, you know, pitch like an investment banker, grow the business like a management consultant. Management consultants never leave themselves exposed like that. They always burrow in and try to meet as many people as they can, so that when their initial contact leaves, two things are true. One, they actually help the initial contact get the next role, so now they got two clients, right? Yeah, and that the existing person, the initial contact just left, not a problem because everybody in the department loves Steve, so it’s not a problem. Like we’re gonna keep doing, even when the new GC comes in and says, “Hey, I want to do a review. Everybody in the department is gonna say, “Yeah, but you don’t need to review Steve. Like Steve is, you know, he’s burrowed in. He’s good. You know, you got inside people fighting for you. You never have to fight for yourself.

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:00]

I

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:00]

think it’s a pretty significant misstep lawyers make: is not burrowing in and not recognizing that having multiple contacts and relationships at a company is is pretty important, especially if it’s you know 50 or 30% of your business. Like to not do that, I think is is borderline, you know, insane insanity.

 

Chaka Patterson  [25:20]

It’s self malpractice business is business development malpractice, right?

 

Steve Fretzin  [25:24]

Ah, there we go. I I wasn’t coming up with the words. Thanks, John. Man, I appreciate that. Good team, good team here. So, all right, we’re cutting into some things. Is there anything else that lawyers that are listening could do, should do, to either deepen relationships or work to to expand them into maybe other divisions or other like maybe maybe cross marketing like that’s a thing where they just like I’m the commercial real estate that’s what I do and that’s what the business I get but this company has needs that go away beyond that how have you been approached and how have you thought about that

 

Chaka Patterson  [25:56]

yeah and so one of the things that people who I really had deep relationships with, again, without being salesy, but just being honest. Hey, we really enjoyed working with you in the commercial real estate area. As we were doing our homework, we noticed that you have a lot of litigation in this particular area. One of my guys, great guy. He understands client service, client first. He does that really, really well. Wrote this amazing article. Could I introduce you guys? Could we all get coffee together?

 

Steve Fretzin  [26:32]

Yeah,

 

Chaka Patterson  [26:33]

and absolutely. And the best lawyers that I worked with did that. They sold their entire firm. I mean, there were a couple firms where we did a lot of business across the firm because it it started that way. And then once we worked with the you know partner two, partner three, then after a while it’s like okay, well everybody at that firm is terrific. So that’s just that becomes a go-to firm. Yeah, we just we’re gonna call them first on a matter, and only if they can’t do it would we then look elsewhere. Yeah, and that and that’s very common.

 

Steve Fretzin  [27:13]

But I think that’s a very direct ask, and I and there are some lawyers that are gonna hear that and go, “I just need to do it. Like I just need to suck it up and do it. There’s other lawyers. I’d be like, “That’s hard. It’s hard. It’s uncomfortable, and it’s hard. Similar to making and ask for an introduction. I mean, maybe a smoother way is to is to just ask. You know, say, “Hey, you know, just oh, here’s a great here’s here’s a way I teach it is also like a third party story. So a number of the clients like you, John, that have been working with us for you know 510 years have been coming to us. You know, asking us for stuff outside of commercial real estate, and I just want to make sure you’re you’re properly protected and and you’re not at risk. Can I just ask you a few questions? Make sure you’re okay, because like sure. And then you hit them up with employment. You hit them up with you know maybe you know expansion M and A. You hit them up with things that are maybe three three or four practice area questions that are surrounding commercial real estate or surrounding litigation, if it was litigation, and I think that tends to that tends to get them to open up and share that maybe they’re not being properly represented. By the way, you mentioned malpractice. It’s not malpractice not to ask these questions, but I think it’s kind of borderline malpractice if there’s if there are lawyers that are unhappy with their current counsel in another area, and you never even bring it up, and you could do better than someone else, like shame for shame.

 

Chaka Patterson  [28:30]

Yeah, I agree. And the number of people will be surprised at the number of counts in-house counsel that are unhappy with their outside counsel, and again, it you know you normally wouldn’t tolerate bad lawyers, right? So it’s not bad lawyering versus good lawyering. These guys screw something up. We got to move. You know that happens from time to time, but it’s more, yeah. You know they they treat me. It’s not going to be said this way, but the gist of it is they treat me like a commodity, right? They treat me like a piece of business, not as a human being, right? I don’t feel any connection to John, so I’m open to moving the business to you, Mike, because you know John and I just have a transactional relationship. We have no other kind of relationship.

 

Steve Fretzin  [29:25]

Yeah, and that’s so highly replaceable. And I think lawyers they stop themselves from doing the right things on the BD front because they just assume they they have lawyers. Like they don’t need me. They have lawyers like they don’t need me. No, they do need you, and they may not be happy with the lawyers. You just didn’t. You don’t know. You can’t. You gotta look. I mean, there’s lawyers that that maybe maybe nobody needs business development coaching. Maybe no one needs you know in house you know leadership and counseling and career coaching from you. You know, like or maybe not, or maybe they do. Like, why are we just assuming that? Why don’t. We have an open mind and say, you know, there’s people that are not going to be, you know, to be satisfied these days is harder than ever. Like, how how how satisfied are you with your landscaper? How satisfied are you with your CPA? I can’t tell you a damn good thing about any of. Well, I’ve got a, I’ve got a good CPA, but there’s a number of CPAs where I’m just like, they’re just, you know, wrong all the time or something. Or it’s just

 

Chaka Patterson  [30:21]

purely transactional, right? Like we don’t,

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:23]

yeah, yeah. It’s yeah.

 

Chaka Patterson  [30:24]

We’ve never had, you know, like maybe the most we’ve ever. The only relationship we have is coffee when you’re in town or something, right? Yeah, it’s not. We don’t have a relationship where you did me this solid.

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:37]

Yeah, I trust you.

 

Chaka Patterson  [30:38]

Right, know you have my back. Yeah. So therefore, when you come to me and say, “Oh, whether it’s direct or indirect, but the bottom line is, if you want me to meet one of your partners, I’m going to do it. Why? Because I trust you.

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:54]

Yeah. This is the new normal. My

 

Chaka Patterson  [30:56]

back.

 

Steve Fretzin  [30:57]

Yeah. This is the new normal. I think the old days of you know, hey, loyalty is good. You know, fair rate, good, good legal work. Not that’s a that’s a myth. That’s a myth today. You’re going to lose that business. All right, listen, man. This week can probably go on for another hour, but we got to wrap things up with with my my famous question: What Chaka’s big mistake?

 

Chaka Patterson  [31:17]

Yeah. So when I was in house, well, I had I was treasurer of Exelon, and I decided to head back to private law practice. You know, I had a real opportunity to change my practice to make it more of a corporate finance practice, and I had sort of grown up as a litigator, and so instead of doing that, you know, stepping outside my comfort zone, I stayed well within my comfort zone and went back to being a commercial litigator. And you know, I was at Skadden, which you know, obviously for corporate finance would have been a a phenomenal platform. And so you know, is one of those things where if you stay within, as we’ve been talking about, if you stay within your comfort zone, if you never step out even a little bit and try something new, try something different, you’re just going to leave a lot of value on the table.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:14]

Yeah, we’re kind of back to you know, it’s the who’s most responsive to change or maybe most open to change is going to be the one that survives, and by the way, also lives a happier life. I think we we can’t really be fully free and happy if we stay within our comfort zones with anything, right? We always got to try to break it out, man. So great, and I’m so happy that that we’re that I got you on the show and that we were able to talk this out. I mean, for lawyers that are struggling with how to improve their in-house relationships or get more from their in-house relationships, but not in a salesy way, in a way where everyone wins, right? Where everybody’s getting more value. This was really, really valuable. So thank you so much.

 

Chaka Patterson  [32:53]

Yeah, take a moment with me.

 

Steve Fretzin  [32:55]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I’m going to give you a chance to give a shout out in a minute. We got to promote your business, but want to take a moment to thank our wonderful sponsors PimCon and Rankings.io lawyer.com Lex Reception and if you’re a lawyer who just needs a little bit of how do I get started with Steve Fretzin and start working in his world and networking with his rainmakers and everything check out Be That Lawyer community it’s bethatlawyer.com/community I think it’s like 700 bucks a year. I know I’m going out to dinner with my wife. We’ll probably spend $700 and you can get, you know, that because that’s what’s going on right now. Especially if you get a couple drinks or order a bottle of wine. But ultimately, you know, look, you can you know learn from me, learn from the rainmakers I’ve interviewed, network internally. There’s all this great stuff there, so check that out, everybody. Build your book, own your future, be that lawyer. Right, that’s where we started. Chaka, people want to get in touch with you and they want to hear more about your new newish business. How do they do that?

 

Chaka Patterson  [33:53]

Yeah, so they can reach me at chaka@chakastrategy.com or they can go up to my website chakastrategy.com

 

Steve Fretzin  [34:02]

Yeah, you’ve got a lot of experience in your lifetime, and I think lawyers would be wise to try to capture that experience and use it for their own for their own greedy purposes. No, for their

 

Chaka Patterson  [34:12]

right exactly to better the better

 

Steve Fretzin  [34:13]

their lives nicer ways so they could

 

Chaka Patterson  [34:15]

take their wives out for $700 Yeah, let’s go

 

Steve Fretzin  [34:17]

$700 dinners. Who’s in? Who’s in? Let’s go. Yeah, I’m not. I’m not doing that all the time. I, my father, my father, the Larry, the late great Larry, the lawyer, used to say, “I’d rather have a, I’d rather have a McDonald’s than an expensive steak. And yeah, he never actually went to McDonald’s. He just said that as a saying. But anyway, hey man, thanks so much for coming on the show, sharing your wisdom. This has been beautiful, and I’m so happy that we got to meet. And I know that you and I are going to continue talking well after this this show gets let out.

 

Chaka Patterson  [34:45]

Absolutely, thank you.

 

Steve Fretzin  [34:47]

Yeah, thank you, and thank you everybody for hanging out with us for last 30 and change. Hopefully, you like the new tagline. I’m going to keep using it until people tell me to stop, build your book, own your future. It’s kind of what be that lawyer is all about, and hopefully. Doing that, living your best lawyers’ lives. Take care, everybody. Be safe and well. Talk again soon.

 

Narrator  [35:09]

Thanks for listening to “Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.