When is legal recruiting “simple but hard”? In this episode, a former BigLaw attorney turned recruiter pulls back the curtain on how associates can become highly marketable and how firms quietly lose top candidates—plus what both sides must do differently in today’s ultra-competitive legal market.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Chris White discuss:
- Transition from law practice to legal recruiting
- Why credentials and experience shape lateral options
- Common mistakes associates make in their careers and job searches
- How firms lose strong candidates and what great hiring processes look like
- Market trends, compensation pressure, and lifestyle trade-offs in law
Key Takeaways:
- Legal recruiting looks straightforward on paper, but in practice, it’s a complex, often difficult matchmaking process between firms and candidates.
- Credentials, law school performance, and the caliber of prior firms heavily influence how many and what kinds of lateral opportunities an attorney will realistically have.
- Associates quietly hurt their own marketability when they neglect their LinkedIn, allow their materials to go stale, and fail to build a network while billing heavy hours.
- Law firms routinely lose top candidates by moving too slowly, failing to tell a compelling story about what makes them unique, and not putting prospects in front of the right partners.
- Smaller and mid-sized firms can’t always compete on salary, but they can win by offering better lifestyle, lower billable requirements, and real upside for business generators.
“The more information a candidate has, the more likely they are to accept.” — Chris White
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About Chris White: As a former practicing attorney, Chris White leverages his firsthand experience and business acumen to effectively recruit, place, and advise attorneys nationwide from his base in Chicago. After earning his BBA from the University of Michigan’s Steven M. Ross School of Business in 2004 and graduating from the University of Michigan Law School in 2007, he began his legal career handling corporate and securities matters at the international firm Drinker Biddle & Reath, later practicing at the mid-sized Chicago firm Pedersen & Houpt. Today, Chris has successfully placed attorneys across a vast array of practice areas—including litigation, corporate/M&A, real estate, and tax—at numerous law firms and companies. Also, the founder of a small beer tasting company, Chris combines his dual background in law and business with a genuine enthusiasm for teaching and helping others to uniquely guide candidates through their legal careers.
Connect with Chris White:
Website: https://www.navigatelegalsearch.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherbrucewhite/
Connect with Steve Fretzin:
LinkedIn: Steve Fretzin
Twitter: @stevefretzin
Instagram: @fretzinsteve
Facebook: Fretzin, Inc.
Website: Fretzin.com
Email: Steve@Fretzin.com
Book: Legal Business Development Isn’t Rocket Science and more!
YouTube: Steve Fretzin
Call Steve directly at 847-602-6911
Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You’re the expert. Your podcast will prove it.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Steve Fretzin [00:00]
Hey everybody, before we get to the show, just want to remind you that the Be That Lawyer community is up and running and rock and rolling. We have a lot of amazing business developer and rainmaking attorneys in there. We’ve got incredible content, courses, live events, and all kinds of ways to help you to be that lawyer. Check it out today at Be That lawyer.com/community And other than that, please enjoy the show.
Narrator [00:29]
You’re listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-Changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fritzen will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now, here’s your host, Steve Fretson.
Steve Fretzin [00:51]
Hey everybody, Steve Fretzin here, and welcome to Be That Lawyer. I’m so thrilled and happy that you’re with us today. If you’ve been checking out the show for a while, we’re, I don’t know, 600 and blah blah blah into it, and it’s just been incredible. The amount of talent that we have on here has been second to none. I’ve been told, I was told recently, Chris, that I am the mr. Beast of legal marketing podcasts. I don’t know how to take that, other than I have nothing to, I have no contest to put you through, and no money, I
Chris White [01:20]
was gonna say I’m ready to be locked in a room for 30 days, I might be a part of this podcast, have to think about it, that changes
Steve Fretzin [01:27]
the concept a bit,
Chris White [01:28]
yeah,
Steve Fretzin [01:29]
but if you’re new to the show, obviously we have some fun here, but most importantly, we’re here to help you to be that lawyer, confident, organized in a skilled rainmaker, you guys are in for a treat today, I’ve got a Chris White, he’s an old friend of mine. How long we known each other, buddy? Like 10 years, 15 years.
Chris White [01:44]
It’s at least 10, at least 10. Yeah,
Speaker 1 [01:47]
yeah.
Steve Fretzin [01:48]
And I’m just.. I just think the world of you, and I love what you do. And as much as I believe that lawyer, lawyering is a noble, a noble profession, I also think that legal recruiting is also a noble profession, although I know there’s also a lot of bad blood in the water about legal recruiters when people talk about them, and I always say I know some bad recruiters. Chris is the man. Chris is, if you wanted to talk to someone as honest as the day is long, and that really cares about you and cares about placements and making sure a good fit, Chris is the guy. So,
Chris White [02:21]
yeah. No, thank you. you so much, Steve. And likewise, really think highly of you and love what you’ve done. I remember when you were first starting this, and it’s awesome what you’ve been able to accomplish. So, congrats, it’s
Steve Fretzin [02:32]
been a good time. It’s been a good time, and you know what else is a good time? Our quote of the show, and Chris, you’ve got a good one here. No one’s heard this one before, because you just made it up out of the blue, I’m pretty sure you said recruiting is simple but hard at it. Then I wrote next to, I wrote Chris White, because I wrote that. But welcome to the show, man. Happy to have you back. And it’s been a long time, and I apologize for that. But tell us about that quote.
Chris White [02:56]
Yeah, so I think when it comes to recruiting talent, and this is true outside and inside the legal industry, right? It doesn’t really matter. It’s on one hand very simple, right? And you’ve.. and I think if you’re hiring, you can get caught in this trap where you’re like, this can’t.. but then when you actually go into it, oftentimes it’s really, really hard, and so that’s really the what the quote means,
Steve Fretzin [03:22]
yeah, yeah. And I think we’re going to take a deep dive into it today, and know whether you’re a managing partner or someone hiring, or you’re an associate listening, or even a partner listening, you know, let’s set you up for success. Let’s make sure that you get, we pull out a every gem out of Chris that we can today, so that you’re all, you know, prepared to hire, prepared to job jump, whatever you’re doing, but let’s take a step back before we take a step forward. Chris White is the president of Navigate Legal Search, former practicing attorney located in Chicago. Give us a little background on that transition and how you came to be.
Chris White [03:56]
Yeah, so I started off, graduated 07 which turns out to be a bad time from law school, I worked at a large firm here in Chicago, was an M and a corporate lawyer, survived two rounds of layoffs, but the third one got me, and so 2010 I was looking for another legal job. I started leading food tours and loved it. Ended up starting my own beer tour company, so it kind of went way out in the left field. There was a lot of fun, not lawyer money, so I actually went back, practiced for a few years again, and this, I think, I was just out of the game too long, and actually just didn’t like it, loved the people, but didn’t like the actual practice, so I’m like, what am I going to do with my life? I bought all these career books, I was like a kid in high school all over again, trying to figure it out,
Steve Fretzin [04:41]
called it all guidance counselor. Hey John,
Chris White [04:43]
what do I do? Exactly, exactly. And in recruiting, a, you know, was the thing that I kept circling, like I was just kind of triangulated on this, and was like, well, there it is, right? Like, and so joined a small recruiting agency here in Chicago. I loved it, and spun off my own thing a couple years ago.
Chris White [05:04]
Yeah,
Chris White [05:04]
and have really, really enjoyed it,
Steve Fretzin [05:06]
yeah,
Chris White [05:07]
as well. So
Steve Fretzin [05:08]
wonderful, wonderful. And you know, there’s maybe some things that you didn’t understand when you were a lawyer that you understand now. I mean, what, what do you understand now about, like, recruiting, and let’s say associates that you didn’t understand when you were actually an associate.
Chris White [05:26]
Oh my gosh, I wish I could go back in time and tell myself, yeah, you know a lot of these things, right? But I would say that, you know, you really, there’s a lot of things, right, when it comes to legal recruiting, it’s an interesting market because there’s certain firms that are looking for a certain caliber of credentials, right, so you have to meet a certain threshold to even get in the door, and other things are more
Steve Fretzin [05:52]
law school and grades and stuff like that, and college,
Chris White [05:55]
exactly,
Steve Fretzin [05:56]
yeah,
Chris White [05:57]
and then when it gets to lateral recruiting on the experience market, your existing experience is so important, and also the caliber firm you’re coming from, right? And this kind of dictates the market for you as an attorney, so it’s just interesting because most of my job is matchmaking, right? I’m trying to make matches where I know the firm and the candidate, at least on paper, have that initial connection, and then it comes to the personality and the other aspects of the job search that become really, really important.
Steve Fretzin [06:30]
Yeah, and so I was going to say, like, you know, someone that’s looking to be recruited or be recruitable, is it obviously having experience, you know, maybe, maybe the way to go, you know, like, you know, three, four years in big law, or is that like, what’s the pedigree that that firms are looking for that an associate that maybe is looking to job would consider like highly desirable?
Chris White [06:51]
Yeah, I mean, it really depends, right? But obviously that the scale kind of goes up, so if you’re at a top firm and you did well in law school, and you know you have all that. Your options are going to be more numerous, because you can kind of trade – I don’t want to say down, because there’s a lot of great firms that just don’t have those credential requirements. Or you can move to a peer form, you can move in house. The journey becomes easier, the kind of the top, the higher up the scale, you are right, it just gives you more options, and then from when you, you know, kind of move down that credential scale, it doesn’t mean your options are you’re out of options, you just have to be a little more strategic in terms of how you look at the market, there are some firms where you can jump up, right, if you wanted to do that, other firms, there’s really limited options when it comes to that, so it just really depends. I think also the type of experience you have, you’re going to be the most marketable using that experience. That’s what these firms or companies are hiring. Want you to
Steve Fretzin [07:51]
step in and just be able to run like day two, day
Chris White [07:54]
three, and that’s been current trend is really stressed on that, right? So they just came out from Prospects, which I use, which is a great legal database of lawyers. They track hiring, and they just said that for the first time in their database history, experienced lawyers outpaced first hires out of the law school. So firms want the plug and play, they want the experience, they want somebody who can come in and contribute really quickly.
Steve Fretzin [08:23]
Yeah, I’m going to throw a crazy question to you, which you’re not expecting, but it’s nice, all right. From the associate’s mind right now, someone that’s been three to five years in, they’ve experienced big law or mid market or whatever. When they look to move, is it about the money? Is it about finding more flexibility, burnout? Is it about finding a great culture, like finding happiness, flexibility in the.. and how often they need to be in the.. like, what are you seeing as an insider, and how would you sort of rank them as far as like what they’re looking for today?
Chris White [08:58]
That’s a great question, and
Steve Fretzin [09:00]
you’re not going to answer it, you better answer. Oh
Chris White [09:02]
no, I am going to answer it, because I think it’s really important for hiring managers to know, which is, I think, and my candidates might push back on this, but this is my psychoanalysis of them when I speak with them.
Steve Fretzin [09:15]
Yeah,
Chris White [09:15]
compensation most of the time is not the driver of a lateral move.
Steve Fretzin [09:20]
Okay,
Chris White [09:20]
now part of that is structural, you know, if you’re at a market-paying firm, that’s the market, and there’s a handful of firms that pay the top that you can achieve, at least in big law, quote unquote, right, large law firm life, so you can’t really, you know, go higher than that, you’re at the peak, but a lot of those candidates are willing to potentially trade down if they can find more balance, you know, these places are can be tough places to work. They demand a lot of time, a lot of hours. They’re not necessarily super flexible, so nights and weekends, right? So flexibility, mentorship, I hear a lot when it comes to. You know, people want their partners or others to be invested in their futures and actually care about them, not that they don’t, but you know it’s different, right, to have that true mentorship. I think training opportunities, making sure they’re getting the right experience. Sometimes I talk to associates who, for whatever reason, are slow and they get worried, and for good reason, and so they’re looking to make a move to go to a more active type of practice. So it really can change, and everyone is a little different on what they’re looking for, but I would argue compensation is not the primary driver most of the time at the associate level.
Steve Fretzin [10:40]
Yeah, and also I’m curious about, you know, having more of an open culture, open comp, like it’s clarity about I’m an associate, but I can make partner if I do this, I can make equity if I do this, versus it being all, you know, hearsay, or maybe just everyone’s in the dark until they’re not
Chris White [11:01]
absolutely, and that’s a huge challenge, and I also understand from the loss term firm side, because they’re trying to balance their structural pyramid, too, right, in terms of they’re not necessarily sure who is going to make partner,
Steve Fretzin [11:15]
yeah,
Chris White [11:15]
so it can be hard to formalize that process, but yes, absolutely, path to partnership. What do you want me to do? You know, are you going to come to me as the seventh or eighth year associate and demand that I start generating business when I’ve never done it before, and that sort of thing. So, you know, those expectations and what people certainly can play a role.
Steve Fretzin [11:36]
Got it. And then, what are some common mistakes that talented associates make that sort of quietly reduces their marketability over time.
Chris White [11:44]
I think, well, from a pure play like structural level, when you’re being presented or submitting to a firm, I think you want to have your materials really sharp, and that is something, obviously, is a biased recruiter. Recruiters can help with, but even if you don’t use a recruiter, make sure, make sure your LinkedIn profile is up to date and look sharp. There are certain things you want your first shot to be your best shot as an associate, so you want to make sure your materials are just as teed up as they possibly can be. I see that mistake sometimes where I’m like, oh, you know, because once they say no, it’s really hard to get a second look. The, yep, sorry, glasses,
Steve Fretzin [12:26]
no, you keep going, you’re doing great. The
Chris White [12:28]
other thing I think that people make is they should be network, you know, it’s art, you’re building 2400 hours, you’re getting crushed at work, maybe you have a family like this, these are challenging times, but to the extent you can, you should be kind of networking. You should be kind of keeping an eye out. Again, as a biased recruiter, have conversations with recruiters. Recruiters like, if I love having people who speak with me who are happy, and I never, you know, never need to talk to me again, but you can get data from me. I’m happy to share what I’m seeing in the market, what you know, and other people too. You want to kind of have an idea of what the market is, because when that time comes, if it comes, you want to be prepared.
Steve Fretzin [13:14]
But it sounds like a mistake, then, might be that, and this goes to the show, the theme of the show, that that lawyers are just keeping their head down, doing their billable hours, three years, four years in. They have no network built, they’ve communicated with no one, they got no LinkedIn presence, never posted, they just did their job, and you know, maybe made it home, versus someone who was able to go out and develop a network and build, and you know, maybe bring in some matters, right, and have some experience in bats and pitch meetings, or whatever. And, in addition, you know, has started, you know, getting a following on LinkedIn, so that is that desirable by the law firms, as you’re seeing
Chris White [13:53]
- Yeah, I mean, I don’t think I personally.. it depends on the firm. Some firms want the head down worker bees, right, because that’s what they need, so they’re not necessarily – it’s not necessarily in their interest, but it probably is in the candidates’ interest or the association. Well, that’s one of
Steve Fretzin [14:08]
the things I try to train people up on, is if you’re looking to move laterally, you need to ask, what’s your take on BD at the firm? Like, what? How do you support someone that’s interested in building a book and interested in growing a brand, and you know, in making equity, and they go, well, we just, you know, yeah, we support it in the sense that we’re gonna tell you to put your head down and get to work, yeah, so that could help an associate sort of identify which firms make more sense culturally than others by asking some key questions that identify, you know, there’s an upward, upward trajectory here, and I think it’s challenging for big firms to have an upward trajectory, because they’re just, they’re not really set up for it much anymore.
Chris White [14:50]
Yeah, and you know, this is where every firm is different. There are certain firms, I remember this is years ago, speaking with a friend of a friend who brought in a 50 million. Million dollar client to a firm, and the firm passed because they’re like, we’re going to be conflicted out of our billion dollar clients. So, at a certain level, it can be really hard to, if your goal is to be a business generator law firm, the platform itself can be an impediment to that, depending on what your goals are.
Steve Fretzin [15:19]
Yeah,
Chris White [15:19]
and so that’s why understanding that market in your firm is really important, because, and you’ve said this over the years, and I think it’s absolutely true. You know, the most job security you’ll have if you want to remain in a law firm is having a portable book of business, because that’s really going to give you the most job security over the long term.
Steve Fretzin [15:37]
Okay. Yep, yep. Well, listen, there’s a reason we’re doing what we’re doing, and trying to help people, you know, a identify why this is important, and number two is, you know, provide them some training and skills and things to learn this, so they’re not just winging it and hoping for the best. This is something that there’s a lot resting on this, right? And right, control, freedom, independence, all words that I hear
Chris White [16:00]
just about every day from attorneys that don’t have it, and right, you get it, and the other thing, too, that’s really intense when it comes to law firms, at least large law firms in major markets, is there’s kind of a clock, right, the salary scale at the market firms goes up to eighth year, so that means by the time you’re in eighth year, and there’s, you know, council, there’s non-equity partnership, is very common these days, now becomes more and more common every day, so it’s not like you’ll necessarily be kicked out of your firm, but it, there is a sort of clock, if you want to be a long-term practice, long term at a law firm, it several types of law firms.
Steve Fretzin [16:42]
Yeah, hey
Steve Fretzin [16:45]
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Chris White [18:26]
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think having a great process is really important, and you know, this is true in sales in general, right? Like, time kills deals, you hear that over and over, and I’ve seen it where certain firms are slower to move with good candidates, strong candidates, and they end up losing that candidate because another opportunity, guess what, they’re a strong candidate, they moved on. So I think that’s really, really one thing. I think also being able to tell your story, it can be really challenging, and I get this, you know, when in this is true in all, a lot of industries, legal is not unique in this. What is your special sauce? What is your story? What makes you unique on the market? And it might even be, we have this great part, you’re going to be working for John or Jill, and she’s incredible. That’s a special sauce. There’s only one John or Jill, right? It could be the type of work, the type of clients, it could be the long-term trajectory of the firm. There’s so many different levers that you can push to every firm has one, you just need to make sure you uncover that and communicate that. Yeah, when it comes to it, and then I think also just during the interview process, making sure they’re interviewing with the right people, and making sure you know lawyers are tend to be intelligent people, so they’re going to be able to kind of ascertain what is working for them or not, and they’re going to have a gut moment. I always say, trust your gut, right, like your gut is going to tell you, and so. So you want to make sure they have enough ammunition to be able to make a qualified decision, and I usually think the more information a candidate has, the more likely they are to accept.
Steve Fretzin [20:10]
Yeah, I also like the idea of giving them something to do, give them a project to work on, give them something as a final step before you hire that allows you to really see their work, and it comes back with grammatical errors, or comes back with, you know, late, or it comes back where it’s just, you know, that they clearly didn’t want to invest time in it. They’re not serious. It might save you a lot of pain seeing, and I did this when I recruited for marketing people, like I would see who actually spent real time, not using AI fully, and making a video for me, for example, that you could just tell they added more images, they did a little bit more with it, they added their own little panache, you know, to it, and there’s some that just, you know, just like you could tell it was all AI, just they just hit a button, you know, didn’t that was that, and they sent that in, and I think it makes a big difference, you know, and just seeing someone’s work and sharp, you could pay him for it, right? That’s okay, pay him for it.
Chris White [21:05]
Yeah, well, I hate to push back on this point, but in the legal
Steve Fretzin [21:09]
market to push back on,
Chris White [21:11]
yeah, I would not create that. I actually, and that last fall I had a candidate who was interviewing for firm, and they wanted him to mark up, it was an ex, I think they didn’t really, I saw the writing on the wall, right, but they wanted him to mark up 120 page agreement, and the candidate was like, absolutely not. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [21:30]
okay, all right. Well, maybe that’s it. Maybe that’s a, maybe that’s more of a merit, more of a admin paralegal, you know, first, second year, right? Where maybe you’re, maybe your guts telling you there could be a problem here. Let’s check it out.
Chris White [21:43]
Yeah, and I think there’s other ways to figure that out.
Steve Fretzin [21:46]
What would that.. how do you know that someone has.. how do you test for work ethic? How do you test for someone that actually can do what they say they’re going to do
Chris White [21:55]
in a way that.. and this is this is only really helping the top tier candidates, right, but in a way, the credentials themselves tend to speak for themselves if they’re exactly if they’re at a top firm and they went to and they did well at a top law school, and this is credentialism, which I don’t really necessarily like, so I’m kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth here, but that is kind of proof of the pudding, right? In that sense, you can look, you can request hours build for the past few years. They, a lot of times, firms do this on a questionnaire that they have associates or partners fill out.
Steve Fretzin [22:30]
Okay,
Chris White [22:31]
now if they’re slow, there might be reasons for that, right? But there’s way. And then I also think the gut check moment, and sometimes I work on a much more on the client side, right, where I’m advising them more than on the candidate side, where it’s like, brush your gut, you know, like you’re going to meet these people, you probably can ascertain after a few in-person meetings or in Zoom meetings, do you think they’re legit, right? Like, you can really, I think, figure that out pretty quickly too. Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [23:00]
well, I’ve got a couple more questions for you. I mean, one, you’ve been posting data about the current state of recruiting and sort of what’s happening. Talk to me about what you’re seeing out there right now, and then I want to wrap up with just what your thoughts are on AI and how it’s going to impact the legal. And then, then we’ll.. I got one last question for you that’s a surprise. So,
Chris White [23:20]
okay, awesome. Yeah, no, it’s the legal market right now is I would say fairly robust. It’s kind of counter headlines, right? We see all these headlines that are pretty doomed, especially in tech and other areas, but the legal market, you know, we had COVID was wild, right, when that had.. and I saw, and then as soon as everybody was working from home in these law firms, a lot of them were doing really well, maybe better than they ever had. The hiring craze started, it dipped a little bit in 23 and 24 but then really rebounded, and now this year is the best year in a few years from just a lateral talent perspective. I have a lens of kind of the ML 200 because of the recruiting practice, but I would say it’s true even down market as well, because I work with some of those clients too, and it’s, it’s a challenging market to hire for talent. I would say it’s there’s pretty.. there was just a stat the other day that came out that said it’s the highest, this is like including the entire legal market, the highest employment number ever for the entire legal market.
Steve Fretzin [24:27]
Wow,
Chris White [24:28]
so it’s the legal market I think is really healthy at this point.
Steve Fretzin [24:32]
Yeah, the small firms, the 50 person and smaller firms, are in many cases what I’m seeing is desperate, desperate for associates, they’ve got someone that goes on maternity, they’ve got someone that leaves and goes to another firm, and it’s leaving these partners sort of in the lurch, where now they’ve got to pick up the 50 hours a week that someone was doing, and it’s now like they, you know, they had like they’re doing their business development and they’re doing their hours, and now on top of that. All the stuff that they were delegating is now back on them, and they really don’t have a plan. There’s like, what, maybe that’s a good question, like, what type of pipeline should these firms have, so that when something like this happens, they’re not stuck in the lurch, or
Chris White [25:17]
yeah, yeah. And this is, I see this a lot, because, and part of this has been the economic pressure, right there is for much, as I said, compensation in my earlier question. Does it matter? It does to an extent, and the delta, they just came out with another. The marketing associates got a 10 to 20k bump up the chain this month or two ago. Yeah, and so you know, as a first year associate, I think it’s now 235 up to, you know, when you’re going all in comp, it’s over a half a million dollars for an eighth, seventh, eighth year associate. Wow, and so the delta, even if compensation is not that important, if you’re a smaller firm or a mid-sized firm, and your comp is aft or less, which happens, then it can be challenging to attract that market of associates, right? Yeah, so you have to know what what kind of lane you’re swimming in, and then the problem there is there the volume of talent drops off drastically, depending on the practice area. If you’re looking for, like, a corporate M and A lawyer, you know, most of that talent is in the big firms, so then you’re kind of looking for talent in the volume of talent, just isn’t as abundant. Yeah, in those budgets,
Steve Fretzin [26:29]
if you have a budget for an associate, you just paying 150 they take off, and now you’re trying to replace an M and A at 150 and all the M and A folks are making 250 300 right?
Steve Fretzin [26:41]
Yeah,
Steve Fretzin [26:42]
and you’ve got a problem,
Chris White [26:43]
you’ve got a problem, and you can face that. And I think the easiest way to face that is lifestyle, right? Because if you have, and I’m surprised I haven’t seen more of this. I do work with some firms where the target billable hours are 1700 1600 1500 and you, so I can go to these associates and say, ‘Hey, you’re burned out, you know? Sure, you’re going to take a comp hit, but I’ll give you your life back, you know, like, so you, you, you, there are levers, that’s just one of many levers that you can use to try to overcome that, but it is an obstacle that you have to overcome,
Steve Fretzin [27:19]
and you may be in a better place where you have unlimited potential and no cap on what you bring in, right? So you can make part of your equity bring in 1,000,002 three and get a nicer piece of that pie than you would get at the big firm, where you’re making great money busting your hump at 70, you know, 70 hours a week, or whatever. So there’s always give and take.
Chris White [27:40]
Absolutely, I’ve worked with smaller firms where certain firm people with portable books of a certain level, you’re going to make way more at the smaller firm than you would at the large firm.
Steve Fretzin [27:51]
Yeah,
Chris White [27:51]
it’s kind of counterintuitive, I think, to a lot of people, but you’re absolutely right. And then, on top of that, you have billing rates, right? You have much more accessible billing rates, sometimes at smaller and mid-sized firms, so it can be easier to create your portable book of business, or your, you know, less
Steve Fretzin [28:06]
conflicts. So, yeah, 500 an hour, no conflicts, you know, 1000 hour, tons of conflicts. So,
Chris White [28:12]
yeah, yeah, really cool. They were billing out. I just read there was a second year associate restructuring work, billing out at $1,200 just an hour,
Steve Fretzin [28:21]
yeah,
Chris White [28:21]
or maybe it was 1400 it was something like, whoa, I don’t know, so you know that, imagine what the partners are billing out at there, right, like, so,
Steve Fretzin [28:32]
wow, you know, yeah,
Steve Fretzin [28:34]
wow, could be challenging for the future, so last question for you, What’s Chris’s big mistake,
Chris White [28:39]
I have a lot of mistakes. I think the biggest mistake I’ve made as a recruiter happened last fall. There was a.. I found I was working with a law firm, small law firm, very niche practice, and I found a strong candidate, and who was looking exactly for what this firm was offering.
Steve Fretzin [29:02]
Yeah, I
Chris White [29:02]
mean, it was one of those. As a recruiter, you’re like,
Steve Fretzin [29:05]
yeah, you
Chris White [29:05]
guys are gonna get married, you know? Like, just, I don’t even meet you, don’t even need to meet, just trust me. Go to the church, you know. And, and they had nice talks, but the candidate got cold feet at the end, which happens. I mean, this is part of the process, and I was in my head, I was like, it’s over, right? Like, okay, you know, we tried, and it’s over, and the client, the law firm, the managing partner, who I was working with, was like, I really like her, just talk to her again,
Steve Fretzin [29:39]
yeah,
Chris White [29:39]
just say I’m thinking about her, like, yeah. So I’m trying, I’m like, it’s over, like, come on, what are we doing here?
Steve Fretzin [29:45]
Yeah,
Chris White [29:46]
and sure enough, two months later, she accepted the job.
Steve Fretzin [29:49]
Wow,
Chris White [29:50]
and it.. I wish I could say it was because of my wonderful recruiting,
Steve Fretzin [29:54]
yeah,
Chris White [29:54]
but it was really the persistence, although professional, it was not, you know, professional. Persistence of this managing partner who knew how to, wanted to get lock up that talent, and really liked her. I mean, it was genuine.
Steve Fretzin [30:07]
Yeah,
Chris White [30:08]
it was as genuine as it gets, right. So I think my failure, I’ve been really thinking about that, of like, what is the right level of,
Steve Fretzin [30:16]
like, yes,
Chris White [30:17]
you need to really think this through. Like, this is a really good opportunity.
Steve Fretzin [30:20]
You and I have the same disease, I’ve got over it years ago, and you’re just getting over it, but it’s nice guy disease. We’re both nice guys. We don’t want to see anybody upset for any reason. We don’t want to push anything on anybody, and yet some people need a little more encouragement, because you know, sometimes they just, they just can’t see the right thing when it’s in front of their faces. It can be frustrating,
Chris White [30:39]
right?
Steve Fretzin [30:40]
Yeah, I get that. I get people that are so perfect for my program, all the problems that they have, I solve. Their commitment is ironclad, and everything. And then they just can’t pull the trigger because they’re, you know, busy or whatever it might be. And I’m like, oh my god, we would have made so much money together, but, but I, I’m actually, you know, I, I’m fortunate that when you have, you know, you want things to work out like that, but when you have a really full pipeline, like if that, if that managing partner had three other people just like that, right, it wouldn’t have hurt as bad, and they may not been in as aggressive, and so I think a lot of it has to do with business development, like what’s your pipeline, and if you’ve got multiple candidates, or in this case, for me, multiple great lawyers to work with. I don’t ever feel like I’m desperate for somebody, because I know I’ve got more behind them that are just as good and talented. So, I know in a nice situation that isn’t always the case, but really matter. I just, I just love having you on. I apologize, it’s been so long. You’re one of my favorite people, and you know when I talk to my law firms, about recruiters, your name comes up almost every time, so the fact that they’re reluctant to, you know, engage a recruiter because they’re frustrated, that’s more their head trash. But I’m hoping to have you back, you know, sooner rather than later, and keep thinking about you. So,
Chris White [31:56]
likewise,
Steve Fretzin [31:56]
yeah, let’s take a moment, though, and let’s thank our sponsors. We’ve got Lex Reception and lawyer.com and of course, Pim Con, the Personal Injury Mastermind, coming up. Chris, somebody’s listening to this, and they’re like, “You know what, I’m at that point where I need a great recruiter, whether they’re a candidate or a firm. What are the best ways for them to find you?
Chris White [32:15]
Yeah, so navigate Legal search.com is my website, everything comes to me, also, you can find me on LinkedIn, which I should note, Steve, this is why you’re the marketer, and I need help all the time here, but I believe it’s.. let me get my
Steve Fretzin [32:31]
Chris Bruce White..
Chris White [32:32]
don’t have my.. I’m like, I think it’s Chris Bruce White and LinkedIn, you got a
Steve Fretzin [32:36]
parentheses in the Bruce, which messes up everything,
Steve Fretzin [32:39]
yeah,
Steve Fretzin [32:42]
you might assume you might think about doing Chris, Chris White recruiter might be, yeah,
Chris White [32:46]
Christopher Bruce White is my liberal,
Steve Fretzin [32:49]
right? Yeah,
Chris White [32:49]
so you can find me, obviously, need to work on the marketing development here, but the.. and would love to chat. I love talking, I get fired up when I talk about recruiting, and I do like, I, I know I’m probably too nice for this stuff, but I just love helping and doing what I can. So, even if you’re like, I’d love to just kind of chat for a little bit and see what’s going on, I’m happy to provide my insights.
Steve Fretzin [33:14]
Yeah, you’re the man, I appreciate you so much. And listen, everybody, thank you for hanging out with Chris and I for 30 plus here to help you, whether you’re an associate, hiring partner – doesn’t matter, lots to learn at Be That Lawyer. Take care, everybody, be safe and well. We will talk again, so very soon.
Narrator [33:34]
Thanks for listening to Be That Lawyer: Life-changing Strategies and Resources for Growing a Successful Law Practice. Visit Steve’s website, fretzin.com, for additional information and to stay up to date on the latest legal business development and marketing trends. For more information and important links about today’s episode, check out today’s show notes.
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